SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: The Dangers of Talkin' Religion

[Catherine]

Thank you Jundo. I personally love the simplicity (and learnedness) of your teachings as I do Joko Beck's 'Simple Mind' philosophy. As a beginner I find passionate discussion refreshing......and fun. As for offending others I'm also fond of Eleanor Roosevelt's rather Buddhist-like observation that ' no-one can make you feel inferior without your consent' (or something like that!).
Gassho
Cathy
Sat today

[Onkai]

Thank you, Jundo.

Gassho,
Onkai
SatToday

[Joyo]

It's not just religion, it's parenting also. Always a topic I tread very lightly upon. Just the other day on facebook, a (now former) facebook friend posted that she's sick of kids being brats and parents need to discipline their kids more. Someone commented and started calling kids who behave a certain way spoiled brats. I posted, very nicely I might add, to please not assume because there can be more going on than meets the eye. I gave the example of my son and how he used to throw the worst tantrums in public, and now he's older and a great kid. However, all the guy heard was "please don't assume" and got very defensive towards me. I left the conversation, and this made him more angry at me and told me it's a shame I won't listen to his educated opinion. OOyy, thank goodness for delete buttons on facebook. I rarely open my mouth with my opinions and this is why.

You are so right, Jundo. People will only hear what they want to hear. Thank you for your openness and honesty here.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[mr.Lou]

Thank you for your insight Jundo. I recently had the opportunity to discuss my Buddhist practice with my father (a devout Christian). I have avoided this conversation for years because I felt ashamed to admit to my father that I no longer shared his beliefs or religious affiliations. After all these years, what gave me the strength to speak to my father honestly about my religious views was a perspective I have tried to cultivate in my own mind: I do not speak about religion with any intentions of winning the conversation. I accept what I believe, but that does not require (in my mind) the rejection of someone else's beliefs for them. It's like accepting that my favorite color is black, and my son's favorite color is red. My perspective does not require validation through conformity of those I share it with. I believe this is similar to what you have written about the monastic vs. layman paths and discussions of religion.
Thank you.
Lou
(I sat today)


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[Ishin]

I just came across this thread today. It has me thinking about many things.

This week we are taking about Case #60, and I commented how, to me, this koan spoke about the person of no rank. Jundo often mentions that entering the priesthood is a step DOWN, not a step up. I can easily see how monastics could come to a feeling that they are the "real" buddhists. I admit I personally take issue with this perspective; not because I feel like they are not serious practitioners, but more perhaps because they feel like this sets them, in their minds ABOVE. ( though I am not saying all do feel this way) I also find myself inherently skeptical of monastic practice that is not self sufficient and depends on donations of lay practitioners, again separation of practitioners in a type of hierarchical pecking order. Can we not find enlightenment chopping wood and carrying water? Are the monastics going to the feast on Mt Tai or laying down?

Gassho

[Cyd]

Thank you Jundo.
for this Talk I think that when one has a Opinion its just
that a opinion to some degree i feel some get angry or
offended because they see some truth ? I don't know
for sure its just something i think about from time to time

Gassho
Cyd
Sat2day

[Zenmei]

This is unfolding in my life right now, but I'm the offended, affronted one. I tried to have a conversation with someone very dear to me about Buddhism, and it got emotional pretty quickly. I could see she had some misconceptions (and some accurate criticisms).

I've had to stop and look deeply at my reaction. Why do I feel like I need to defend? Why do I feel like I need to change her mind? Is engaging in this and trying to convince her to see things my way going to help anybody?

Like Mr. Lou said above, I have to let go of my ideas of winning the conversation. My attachment to being right is going to keep causing suffering for everyone involved, so I just need to let it go.

I've been letting it go about 300 times a day. It's sticky.

Grasshoppers,
Dudley
#sat

[Jishin]

Why do I feel like I need to defend? Why do I feel like I need to change her mind? Is engaging in this and trying to convince her to see things my way going to help anybody?

Why do I feel like I need to defend? Why do I feel like I need to change her mind?

---- Ego does not want to let go of itself (sounds funny, doesn't it?) for fear of disappearing. Delusional thinking.

Is engaging in this and trying to convince her to see things my way going to help anybody?

--- Maybe. If you are doing it for her, yes. If you are doing it for yourself, no. Sounds like your Ego is trying to get stronger if you ask me.

Complicated. Complicated.

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Zenmei]

You're more right than you know, Jishin, thanks

Grasshoppers,
Dudley (sat today)

[treebeard]

Just listened to this and I appreciate it. I have to bite my tongue a lot now that I am the family "heretic/apostate" for no longer believing in the "one true religion". I have never been one to push my ideas on others but I am constantly on the receiving end such behaviors these days. Being able to let go has been hugely helpful in my mental health being the one that is different in a homogeneous religious group. It's kind of ironic there is so much discussion of processes and not outcomes sometimes. I think we lose sight of the target due to obsession with the tools supposed to help us get there. I don't know anything about Monasteries and have not been practicing but a few years so my opinion is to be taken as such but I greatly appreciate what I perceive as Jundo's focus on the principles as opposed to the traditions. I think something that is accessible to everyone has a much greater chance of improving the world/reducing suffering than one that is only accomplished by a few. Just my 2 cents. Thanks again for all the wisdom Jundo!

Gassho,
Paul
Sat today

[JohnsonCM]

All too often people can be unbending. Much like a certain oak tree that refused to bend with the wind. And yes, it is very much a cognitive dissonance situation, because when we challenge a belief we are in effect challenging the hope that belief engenders. To challenge one word spoken by Christ is to challenge the very fabric of Christian Salvation. Sadly, many do not want to understand that hope can be a living thing too, and like all living things, it must grow and change - the only other option being stagnation and entropy. We also challenge the other person's legitimacy when we challenge a belief. The challenged person starts to wonder if their conviction was misplaced; if the effort to get where they are was for nothing. No one likes to feel like they've been played like a fiddle. Buddhism teaches us one thing if it teaches us anything, our perseptions are probably jaded, and therefore should be treated with a certain sense of awareness. It teaches us that our efforts should be more effortless, and that our convictions got us to the only place they possibly could: here; now. That maybe we shouldnt get so tied up in what we perceive to be "good enough for the gander" as also being "good for the goose" - after all we are different and unique and as far as i recall when different disciples asked Shakyamuni similar questions, he didn't just say the same exact scripted response.

I applaud you, Jundo, to speak on things with dubious benefit to the Way or the people who practice it. Rainbows would certainly be less captivating, if they were all one color. And how could anything that hurts people also help them in their practice. Compassion for all (beings and ideas).

Gassho

Heitetsu

[hamlin81]

Thanks for this. I'm enjoying hearing your perspective on things. I also appreciate the statement you said about "one persons hokum is another person's treasure." I'm paraphrasing. lol I was feeling a tad alienated because I do have some beliefs that bring a lot of comfort for me, but I think a lot of western Buddhist would def call them hokum, but it makes me feel at home here that you said that.

A lot of my "hokum" beliefs are a huge source of comfort for me. I can easily fall into deep depression or anxiety without them. So I appreciate you saying we can have different beliefs and it be ok. Sometimes that's not something you can take for granted.

Thanks so much. I'm going to have to research that Bodhidharma lineage thing you mentioned too. Sounds fascinating.

Gassho,
Michael

[Jundo]

Thanks for this. I'm enjoying hearing your perspective on things. I also appreciate the statement you said about "one persons hokum is another person's treasure." I'm paraphrasing. lol I was feeling a tad alienated because I do have some beliefs that bring a lot of comfort for me, but I think a lot of western Buddhist would def call them hokum, but it makes me feel at home here that you said that.

A lot of my "hokum" beliefs are a huge source of comfort for me. I can easily fall into deep depression or anxiety without them. So I appreciate you saying we can have different beliefs and it be ok. Sometimes that's not something you can take for granted.

Thanks so much. I'm going to have to research that Bodhidharma lineage thing you mentioned too. Sounds fascinating.

Gassho,
Michael

Hi Michael,

Good to have you around here.

Anyone can be what they want or need to get them through the night, and nobody can tell them not to do so. (Short of a belief that advocates violence or some other harm, no harm and much to gain). Nobody is the last word on truth and what you should believe.

That does not mean that all fantastic beliefs are true and factual (they may or may not be). Nor does it mean that non-believers can't criticize their possible lack of factual nature. The world apparently is not flat no matter how much some people may believe so. Other things may exist despite doubters doubting. I am skeptical of some traditional beliefs and will say so sometimes.

But the believer is free for him/herself to believe whatever one wants, whatever helps.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Jishin]

SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: The Dangers of Talkin' Religion

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Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Tai Shi]

I am attracted to Compassion, right speech, right living, right path of every kind, and there are acts of early puberty in my life I have wept over, and thought as wrong in every way, and yet my therapist has brought me to understand that I was just a boy, consider that I am 66 and Freud was and this cocaine smoking man disproved. Yet, this man had some things to offer modern therapies, like systematic mental inquiry, not so much id, ego, or super ego. Yes my therapist has shown me and helped believe I was just a boy, not an adult, and what I did was not filled with horror. Now about religion, yes one persons chocolate delight is another persons death if diabetic. Same with Buddhism and Christianity. I hold, however, that the two are not incompatible. Why can't enlightenment be accepted with salvation--notice no upper case letters. I an a Buddhist and a Christian. I hold with the Enlightenment of Soto Zen, and I hold with Christian Salvation. The two are not WRONG, and Jesus, and Buddha can live together in my mind because I understand both, and both wash away my imperfection. One with the blood of the Lamb; the other with full understanding of Buddha Nature and Right Path, ao they are not exclusive. At age 66 I am a whole person!

Tai Shi
Calm Poetry
sat today
Gassho