SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

[Kaishin]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

I have been reading some history of the Soto lineage by T. Griffith Foulk, and came across some interesting points he made regarding the devolving of the sotoshu into a largely funerary organization in Japan. He makes the case that, throughout history, one of the most important functions of religion is dealing with the dead, ushering them into the afterlife/whatever, helping the survivors to cope, and so on.

However, Shakyamuni Buddha never covered this area, i.e. no elaborate instructions on funeral ceremonies, etc covering the above. Foulks argues that this alone may explain why Buddhism largely disappeared in India, or became mixed in with the native Hinduism, which of course did cover the handling of the dead elaborately.

Now, he then argues that it may be the very "devolved" function of performing rites/funerals that has in fact kept Zen Buddhism alive and functioning in Japan, even if not in a way that the early ancestors/patriarchs might have liked. Might Zen disappear entirely from Japan without this service, and furthermore, should Western Zen involve itself more in such things to sustain longevity?

Is there merit to this argument? (and sorry if this has been covered before...)

Main source: http://hcbss.stanford.edu/research/proj ... foulk.html

[Jundo]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

Now, he then argues that it may be the very "devolved" function of performing rites/funerals that has in fact kept Zen Buddhism alive and functioning in Japan, even if not in a way that the early ancestors/patriarchs might have liked. Might Zen disappear entirely from Japan without this service, and furthermore, should Western Zen involve itself more in such things to sustain longevity?

Is there merit to this argument? (and sorry if this has been covered before...)

Main source: http://hcbss.stanford.edu/research/proj ... foulk.html

Hi M,

I think this is an excellent point. Buddhism might disappear in Japan if it were not for funerals. Funeral help folks too, and that is what the demand is for. Most people in Japan only have contact with temples during funerals and memorial services for family. It is not all a negative thing. Funerals helps the living with their grief.

Also, Buddhism survived by selling charms and ceremonies to bring good luck or a nice rebirth. Without that, people might be even less interested in Buddhism. Maybe that has a good side too, because it makes people feel better somehow. It also brings money into temples.

That is fine.

However, as was said, I do not think that that is what Buddhism was originally about, or should be about at its heart. It is not what I wish to emphasize in our Sangha.

So, if people want funerals and lucky charms, there are plenty of temples to provide that. However, there should also be ... must be ... practice places like ours too, which emphasize Zazen and the real treasures of the Buddhist Way other than funerals and such. If Buddhism is reduced only to funerals and ceremonies (which it almost is in Japan), it will die too. There must be places that emphasize what we emphasize here.

That's my view.

Gassho, Jundo

[Shokai]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

Good points, I could argue with the handling of grief in Japan vs. elsewhere but that's another story.
As for;

So, if people want funerals and lucky charms, there are plenty of temples to provide

I prefer CocoPuffs if I'm ever invited for breakfast :roll: :lol:

And, if anyone happens to be taking a survey (without sounding to kiss ass-ey :twisted: :evil: , I would strongly agree with the policy at TreeLeaf

[Hoyu]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

Thanks for sharing this interesting article Matt.

Jundo wrote:
I think this is an excellent point. Buddhism might disappear in Japan if it were not for funerals. Funeral help folks too, and that is what the demand is for. Most people in Japan only have contact with temples during funerals and memorial services for family. It is not all a negative thing. Funerals helps the living with their grief.

Also, Buddhism survived by selling charms and ceremonies to bring good luck or a nice rebirth. Without that, people might be even less interested in Buddhism. Maybe that has a good side too, because it makes people feel better somehow. It also brings money into temples.

Very interesting. Thanks Matt for the link and Jundo for this reply. Now, from what I see Buddhism in the west does very little of these practices to sustain itself. As you say, selling charms and the like is fine, but contrasting it with Buddhism in the west, it seems like the western model(not funding themselves through charms and funerals) has more in common with the pre Keizan Zen as described in this article here:

Dogen’s pure Zen, however, is said to have become diluted in the generations following Keizan Jokin (1264-1325) by extraneous elements of Japanese esoteric Buddhist (mikky?) ritual, folk religion, and various other concessions to popular demand, such as the performance of funerals and memorial services for lay patrons

Gassho,
John

[Jundo]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

Dogen’s pure Zen, however, is said to have become diluted in the generations following Keizan Jokin (1264-1325) by extraneous elements of Japanese esoteric Buddhist (mikky?) ritual, folk religion, and various other concessions to popular demand, such as the performance of funerals and memorial services for lay patrons

Gassho,
John

Hi John,

People sometimes play up too much this "blame it all on Keizan" thing, attributing to him a popularizing of Soto-Zen by introducing more esoteric elements, popular ceremonies and the like. You know, much of that existed in Dogen's time too, and back in China. Keizan may just have emphasized it more.

And, as I said, funerals are not a bad thing at all, and bring some small peace to the grieving. When I was back in the city (Ishinomaki) yesterday that suffered 10,000 dead (!!) in the recent Tsunami, I visited a Soto Zen temple there and met briefly the head priest. He had performed so many funerals for his parishioners who had died in the flooding. Of course, here at Treeleaf and at many places in the West, we emphasize "Zazen" ahead of "funeral Buddhism". However, just visiting that priest's temple Sunday, seeing all the families come to the graveyard and the chapel set up for the dead .... one can also say that the work there performing funerals brings some peace and comfort to those in need. Funerals are for the living perhaps more than the departed.

Gassho, J

[Hoyu]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

Hi Jundo,

Thanks for setting things straight on Keizan.

Lack of the need to regularly perform or rely upon these practices in the west is no doubt attributed to the fact that Zen is not as much of a part of the culture yet. In the future, should Zen be as widely practiced here as in Japan, I'm sure there will be more need/demand for such services. Making it an unavoidable change for our Zen groups as well.

Jundo wrote:
When I was back in the city (Ishinomaki) yesterday that suffered 10,000 dead (!!) in the recent Tsunami, I visited a Soto Zen temple there and met briefly the head priest. He had performed so many funeral for his parishioners who had died in the flooding.

I can't even begin to imagine how mentally and physically exhausting this must be!

Gassho,
John

[Shokai]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

Jundo wrote;

Funerals are for the living perhaps more than for the departed

This is exactly true. Ask yourself, 'What does a funeral do for the departed?' The reason we have myths about afterlife is to comfort the living. To think that after we spend all this time worrying, figuring the problems of life, overcoming the agony of defeat, etc, etc, just to end in nothingness is too hard to imagine. Better to hold a ceremony, say good bye and achieve some "closure" than not. And, if pomp and color are what turns your crank, go for it. Call it delusion but it sure soothes the ego and helps us to get on with our lives.

( the foregoing is just the view of someone who has attended a significant number of funerals; professionally and otherwise )

Actually, my favourite was when the grieving family staged an impromtu playing of "Oh Lord won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz"; :shock: the look on the pastor's face was priceless !

[Kaishin]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

The SF Zen Center has a recent podcast that I think ties in nicely with Jundo's talk:

http://www.sfzc.org/zc/display.asp?cati ... ageid=3123

In it, the teacher forwards the "controversial" view that although the monastery/zendo is a "really good" environment for strong practice, it is *not* the only one, and perhaps lacking in many ways. Other topics touched on include the use of technology to further home practice, such as an iPod app that lets you know how many people all over the world are currently sitting with you at that very moment, SFZC's own ango blog that people at home can use to follow along with dharma talks/schedules, among others.

A very interesting listen, and one that highlights just how much Treeleaf is on the bleeding edge of such space-time-less practice. It's clear that traditional brick-and-mortar practice centers are more and more incorporating "outreach" technology, as it's clear that especially in the West, integrated practice with a lay life is highly sought after.

Thanks again to Jundo, Taigu, and the rest of the sangha here for being a model for this still nascent "ground of practice."

_/_ _/_ _/_ _/_ _/_ _/_ _/_ _/_ _/_

[Jinyo]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

Thanks for that Kaishin - half-way through listening. There are some really good downloads on the net.

Jundo and Taigu, I am amazed at how much information there is on Treeleaf - so much work has gone into this site
and the effort is much appreciated.

Gassho

Willow

[Heisoku]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

Treeleaf is an expanding evolving example of breaking down monastery walls in a traditional sense but I heard about this approach on the radio which integrates a sense of practice among members not unlike Treeleaf ( a commitment to daily practice ) but through Christian monastic tradition and a desire to incorporate lay membership.

http://www.moot.uk.net/

[Byokan]

Thank you Jundo

This thread is deep, and contains some of the most essential ideas of what Treeleaf is about. I can only bow deeply in gratitude and respect. May our practice embody these ideals in full expression of the Dharma.

Gassho
Lisa
sat today

[Seishin the Elder]

Still a vibrant thread after all those years with issues that resonant today as well as when we first discussed this.

Gassho,

Seishin Kyrill

Sat with Still Water

[Matt]

Thanks for bumping this thread back up. I learned a lot from this one.

Deep bows,
Matt
#SatToday

[Jundo]

Some folks in the AZTA and elsewhere, reading this, thought I was literally advocating getting bulldozers and knocking down monasteries, probably with the monks still inside! It was another nail in the coffin in my relationship with some of the folks in the AZTA and SZBA (although they were already quite upset with our online Jukai and Tokudo Ceremonies). Rather conservative, monastery trained folks did not welcome all this.

However, my point was merely that, historically, monastic training in centuries' past (and even now) has not been all a bed of roses, with positive and negative aspects. The latter do not get pointed out in the idealized "Shangri La" image of monastic practice. Also modern, lay practice can equal or improve upon aspects of traditional training (while at the same time recognizing that, no, it cannot in all ways and there are differences).

Anyway, not the first or last time I will have been in trouble with some traditional folks.

Gassho, J

SatToday

PS - And Father Kyrillos, always a smile from me when you appear.

[Jundo]

Some folks in the AZTA and elsewhere, reading the series of several talks in this thread (they are all in here as you scroll down), thought I was literally advocating getting bulldozers and knocking down monasteries, probably with the monks still inside! It was another nail in the coffin in my relationship with some of the folks in the AZTA and SZBA (although they were already quite upset with our online Jukai and Tokudo Ceremonies). Rather conservative, monastery trained folks did not welcome all this.

However, my point was merely that, historically, monastic training in centuries' past (and even now) has not been all a bed of roses, with positive and negative aspects. The latter do not get pointed out in the idealized "Shangri La" image of monastic practice. Also modern, lay practice can equal or improve upon aspects of traditional training (while at the same time recognizing that, no, it cannot in all ways and there are differences). Different good paths suited to varied walkers.

Anyway, not the first or last time I will have been in trouble with some traditional folks.

Gassho, J

SatToday