SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

[Amelia]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

"Life is our temple" has been one of the most sticking bits of advice for me. Thank you, Jundo.

[Taigu]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

Much like my Brother Jundo I strongly think there is a room for intensive practice, a few days a year, away from toys, distractions, habits...Intensive doesn't mean brutal, violent, abusive and so on...
As to life as it is, it presents all of us with a lot to practice. From the frictions and clashes with your beloved ones to this annoying boss of yours, this thing that doesn't work, that thing you really wish to be different, from illness to death, all the downs, all the bumps...Plenty to practice. Priests and lay people sitting within the furnace of this world are often stronger than the guys in the hermitage playing with mountain clouds.
And it is really time now to bring the real Dharma seal, the form and mind of Buddha, to everybody. And Treeleaf is doing that too with many other guys out there. Since yesterday I spoke to so many different people in dokusan skyping away.
It is wonderful to communicate and share together this practice.

gassho



Taigu

[ghop]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

Sesshin is important and not to be missed ... but also times of taking two weeks nursing a sick relative in the hospital can be our "Sesshin" ... practice that.

Gassho Jundo. Gassho.

Greg

[Heisoku]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

Hi Jundo...That makes me feel better!
All I do is what I truly can do, so I can stay with that! I guess I feel that I should do more, which is adding to something which doesn't need adding to.
Like many people I spend my time 'looking after', 'thinking about' other people. It is not an onerous chore, but just something I do because I enjoy it and people on the whole benefit. It's nothing special it's just what I do. So what this 'exchange' of views has taught me is that what is currently happening in my life is just my practice, nothing to add (like more intensity) and nothing to take away....which makes me feel..good. And when the time is right I will get my butt to a sesshin somewhere..who knows maybe even in Japan

[Taigu]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

This is what I wrote in a thread of the International Zen Forum, a very heated place filled with furious and blood thirsty opiniated red dakinis...

Much like many people that don't shout and scream here, I would say over and over again that there is room for the old ways but not exclusively..
Much like many guys out there who are awake to the fact that the world has changed, I wish for this change to take place.
Much like the 8 years of Nonin spend in monasteries, my very limited 35 years of practice and the countless kesas sewn ( and most of them offered) have taught me a lot about the value of serving, listening and the beauty of tradition (as things seem to boil down to numbers)
Much like the many people that knocked on my door wounded and really in pain , I will say that a certain type of harsh training is not necessary.
Much like people that don't just want to copy the Japanese style with its unbeatable rigidity, I would like a real dialogue to find our way.
Much like many Japanese priests, often Dharma heirs and people in Sawaki Kodo's lineage I believe that our school is the school of the kesa and shikantaza, not the Sotoshu thing.

There is a way for priests to be trained and live in this world s furnace and blossoms, a place to be a dad and a Zen dude. Treeleaf is just a beginning. Many more wil follow. I once discussed this issue with my teacher who was very much in favor of merging jukai and Shukke Tokudo nto a single ordination. We are not yet doing it but it might be the way forward in the years to come. For now, we re of course doing it the old way.


Gassho


Taigu

[Myoku]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

Knocking down the walls, is not to force entry, is not to say the Monastery
is outdated, is not to steal or force anybody in the monastery to change their
style; its to led flow the dharma into the world. Its happening, right now.
Thank you Jundo, thank you Taigu, you carefully direct that flowing stream
into our daily lives,
_()_
Peter

[Kaishin]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

Thank you for this. I've set aside those silly fantasies of running off to monastery, as though peace were a place to go instead of a way of being.

Gassho,
Matt

[Jundo]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

.
Knocking Down Monastery Walls II - by Jundo



Hello Everyone,

I would like to begin a series of posts I call "POINTS FOR POSSIBLE IMPROVEMENT" in the traditional monastic model. Before doing so, though, I want to emphasize a few things again:

- I generally see monasteries as treasures, shining beacons of light, places of practice and learning which have helped preserve our traditions for thousands of years. As well, they are the right path for so many. My purpose IS NOT TO CRITICIZE ... AND ONLY TO CELEBRATE ... ANYONE WHO HAS A CALLING TOWARD MONASTIC TRAINING, EAST OR WEST. I just see a bit of bent brass in there too that could use a little polishing and fixing.

- I will be talking about "monasteries" more as religious, political, social and economic institutions, and as the citadels maintaining a "church" or "sect", rather than as a place of retreat. However, sometimes I will be touching on the latter too.

- I (and I think I speak for Taigu too) favor completely dropping the barriers between "lay Zen teachers" and "ordained Zen teachers", and just having Wise and Compassionate, Awakened and Awakening, Skilled and Ethical "Zen teachers" ... "Priests" who are neither layman nor monk. But I do not feel that "out in the world" priest training is in any way inferior or superior to the monastic model. Better said, each has its own strong points and weaknesses ... perhaps (in my view) some combination is best, or better suited to some individuals than others.

- I, as much as any Zen Buddhist teacher, believe thoroughly in standards and training because (as a friend commented) being Zen clergy "is important work where lives are at stake". I also generally support monastic training for a period of time for those for whom life so permits, or who are the right flowers for that soil. I just disagree with some on the exclusivity of there only being one road to that training for all which must always lead through a monastery's door, while I support various paths depending on circumstances. I just happen to believe that "life is the uninterrupted monastery" when pierced as such.

I believe that Enlightenment is not to be found in any one place, but can be found in all places when seen. We honor the right and ability of any priest to train in a monastery, we honor the right and ability of any priest to train in other ways too. Where possible, perhaps training both "within and without" is best ... even beyond all thought of "in vs. out".

so, without further ado ...

POINTS OF POSSIBLE IMPROVEMENT IN THE MONASTIC INSTITUTION - No. I - : Have monasteries, throughout their history, been (not just necessarily exclusive in order to maintain levels of training, but) -too exclusive- in their availability to those who may wish to enter and undertake the Dharma? Although monasteries also have a function of training the next generation of gifted Teachers ... have they, in fact, excluded many more individuals who would be gifted Teachers but could not enter the monasteries for social, political or economic reasons? Rather than admitting those who should be there, have they tended to admit those with the political and social connections, and (even today) economic means to be there? Have they tended to admit, not just the many great talents and serious "seekers", but also a disproportionate number of folks who are there for the wrong reasons or should not be there?

Throughout the history of Buddhist monasteries in North Asia, the institution functioned as a center of spiritual training. However, monasteries also served other functions. Sometimes, they served in places such as China, Korea, Vietnam and Japan as a method for the government to license and control the number of priests (so that not everyone ran from work in the rice fields to the relative comforts of the monasteries).

Although there are many stories of true seekers "getting in", there were tremendous hurtles to doing so, and the monastery also frequently served as a place where those "already in" could keep what they had by keeping others out (like my old joke about how, when my family moved from New York to Florida many years ago, we wanted to close the doors on Florida so nobody else moved in!)

Certainly, anyone familiar with the history of Buddhism sees a disproportionate number of teachers mentioned who came from elite backgrounds, the sons of aristocrats, samurai, wealthy farmers and other societal elites. The story of Hui-neng (the illiterate rice grinder) aside, most peasants and others were shooed away at the door ... assuming they made it to the door in the first place despite the many economic and social obstacles ... (and even Hui-neng was just put in the workhouse, grinding rice).

Most of us are familiar with the countless complaints by Dogen, Hakuin and others about the generally low quality of the monks at many institutions that they were encountering in China, Japan and elsewhere. Does this possibly show that these institutions were better at admitting those, perhaps, not so well qualified to be there, or who were there for the wrong reasons, than folks there for the right reasons? Much of that could be due to the fact that, throughout their history, most monasteries have been places of refuge ... not for the spirit ... but also for bastard children of the elite, those who did not wish to work morning to night in the hot sun (compared to the peasant lifestyle), and the like ... as well as true spiritual seekers (I do not mean to say that ALL residents of monasteries were like that ... only lots and lots). Granted, ALL the great Teachers in Buddhist history have been the product of monasteries (Although, ya know, that is not true ... as the likes of Layman Pang and Vimalakirti and many others attest ... though even they had some bucks. Perhaps the old woman in the "rice cake" Koan besting Te-shan is a better example). How many excellent potential monks and Teachers never had a chance because they were peasants, working people, or decided to stay at home to nurse an aging relative or child without having the economic means (as the Buddha himself did) to leave one's family in the charge of the servants in the family palace?

Oh, sure, ya could say that their "Karma" kept the poor as "the poor" and unwashed ... but has this not been an excuse at so many times in Buddhist history for Buddhists to do little about the poor?

On the other hand, even today, it takes a certain social freedom and economic means to head to a monastery for months or years. There are many folks who might truly sell their houses and quit there jobs to do so ... and that is to be commended. But a disproportionate number of folks who head to monasteries, even today, will do so only after figuring out how to have "themselves covered", sufficient savings, a job to return to after (can that truly be called "home leaving", or only "home leasing"?). They are not really giving up their wealth and property to "leave home", so much as calculating how they can "swing it" for a few months.

However, there are also a lot of folks who might be attracted to the monastery because they just got dumped by their wife, fired from their job ... and have nothing to lose. That is perhaps an excellent course in times of life's troubles. These may be people who are just meeting the twists of Karma or bad luck. However, I propose that one will also find a disproportionate number of people who cannot "make it" in the world, have troubles with relationships, holding down a steady job, folks with personality issues (e.g. OCD and other psychological issues) attracted to the protection of the monastery. For them (like the bastard sons of Samurai in Medieval times), monasteries are as much a "refuge for spiritual practice" as a refuge from the complexities and demands of life.

On the other hand, countless folks who would make wise and compassionate Teachers are excluded precisely because they are functioning in life, maintaining healthy marriages, holding down jobs, maintaining a business. These people who may actually have something to say about swimming through life with Awakening, Wisdom and Compassion, are excluded by those very responsibilities. (Could this be a reason that we seem to be getting a high number of social misfits, nervous and shy folks, OCD types, the psychologically vulnerable, ne'er do wells, the sexually abusive and questionable personalities among our many many fine priests and teachers? Should we be instead encouraging participation by those who can combine Wisdom and Compassion with actually living and making it "in the world"? Or, is it just the same number of such folks as in the general population or any group?)

This was summarized very nicely by a comment made to me by an advocate of the monastic path ...

There are many life situations which make someone not a proper candidate for ordination. Parents of small children, people in deep financial debt or legal difficulty, pregnant women, people in the armed forces... they have other obligations and are not proper candidates for ordination. They are also not proper candidates for the space program, a traveling circus, etc. This is not about "who is good enough." ... It's called home leaving.

But why need that be so? Why cannot a pregnant woman or mother be a Zen priest, teacher of Compassion? Why cannot a Soldier be a Zen Priest, Master of the Precepts? Might they not frequently be betters teachers than some fellow who, having graduated from the right institution, knows with which hand to hold the incense, how to tie his robes with the correct knot, and all the words to the Sandokai in phonetic Sino-Japanese? Why are the others excluded again?

Certainly, the fees to get into a monastery can be prohibitive ... with all the expensive robes, bowls, hats, studybooks, donations, sect taxes, gifts, room and board, and such that are required. (This is well described on Muho's blog over at Antaiji in the case of Japan and the Soto-shu. http://antaiji.dogen-zen.de/eng/201011.shtml ) Daddy usually swings the expense because he wants sonny boy to take over the family temple/funeral service. But is it not also true in the West? Although most monastic facilities may claim that "we don't turn anyone away because of economic need" (do most claim this?), the fact of the matter is that training needs to be paid for somehow, by both the institution and the student. Is this one reason that we are still seeing a disproportionate number of white, middle-class or wealthy "monks" ... but not the working class African-America and Latino or other economically struggling groups in our priesthoods?

Anyway, enough for now ...

Gassho, J

PS - I forgot to mention that monasteries traditionally kept women out, with a few minor exceptions. I wanted to say that, at least, we have fixed that part. However, someone wrote me to say that my description is not accurate, and that the exclusion remains in perhaps the vast majority of the Buddhist world ... and de facto in large parts of the Chan/Son/Zen world too (only lessened in some places after years of challenge).

http://buddhism.about.com/od/becomingab ... sexism.htm

http://www.shadowofbuddha.com/about/abo ... -synopsis/

/-/newshome/6611791/monastery-rebuked-over-ordination-of-women/">http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/ne ... -of-women/

"Sôtô Zen Nuns in Modern Japan: Keeping and Creating Tradition" by Paula K.R. Arai
http://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/publications ... J-Arai.pdf
,

[Hoyu]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

Thank you Jundo Sensei,

Same beautiful and inspiring lesson as before but with more explanation. Perhaps this time around the message will be clearer for those who either didn't understand or weren't able to read "in between the lines" with what you meant the first time around.

Gassho,
John

[Ronchan]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

Thank you Jundo,
it is almost a relief to hear and read your views on these matters. I do so understand what you mean, what you are trying to do.
Pure joy for me, Sensei, pure joy.

Deep gassho,
Ronald.

[Kyonin]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

Well I can see why the very dogmatic core of Zen is in uproar for new ideas, but all I can say is that living in the 3rd World is just not easy for me to undertake on my Buddhist studies let alone to go to Japan to live in a monastery for a while.

Having this new look at Zen and Buddhism, this look her at Treeleaf gives me the chance of studying, talking to awesome people and to learn a lot.

So regardless of what people say, I think Jundo and Taigu have it right, and I thank you both with all my heart.

[Hoyu]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

Well I can see why the very dogmatic core of Zen is in uproar for new ideas, but all I can say is that living in the 3rd World is just not easy for me to undertake on my Buddhist studies let alone to go to Japan to live in a monastery for a while.

Having this new look at Zen and Buddhism, this look her at Treeleaf gives me the chance of studying, talking to awesome people and to learn a lot.

So regardless of what people say, I think Jundo and Taigu have it right, and I thank you both with all my heart.

Hi Choco,
What you have written here is perfect example of how it's all about bringing the Dharma out and making it available without exclusion. I strongly agree with the work which is being done here to further such a noble endeavor!

Gassho,
John

[Rimon]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

Joining to the discussion a little bit late, but better than not joining at all

I really enjoyed the talk, it was very educational, and keeps me thinking. Thank you so much, Jundo. I never paid attention before to our motto, and now I realized how powerful it is to view the whole life as a temple.
Connected to that, I'm wondering about whether turning some of our daily activities into rituals can help our practice. Are there any websites or books on the subject that consider this idea of introducing rituals in our daily life? Is anyone experimenting with it? What are your results? So far I've tried gathas, and in the beginning they helped me to stay focused, but after repeating them for a couple of months, it just got merely mechanic and, for example, I forgot my initial impulse to be mindful while walking less than a minute after reciting the gatha.

Gassho from the monastery of my mind

Rimon

[Rimon]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

I forgot!

I also enjoyed a lot the Buddhist version of the spam skit by Monty Python

[Jundo]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

Connected to that, I'm wondering about whether turning some of our daily activities into rituals can help our practice. Are there any websites or books on the subject that consider this idea of introducing rituals in our daily life?

Hi Rimon,

The book by Daido Loori mentioned in our "At Home Liturgry" recommendations is very good.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3308

Gassho, J