SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: I Don't Believe in Buddha!!

[Shogen]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: I Don't Believe in Buddha!!

Choco says,

"Yes, I have always wondered how did they manage to get away in imbuing all those magic powers onto the Buddha. Perhaps it was the sign of the times?"

Perhaps just good marketing to make for a quick buy in without all the required work. Gassho, Shogen

[Seiryu]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: I Don't Believe in Buddha!!

In a way doesn't everything come down to belief? We can say it's direct experience, but don't we have to have faith that what we experience directly is really how it is?

When we are swimming and jumped into that cold water, feel ourselves making strokes and back kicks, at that moment are we still believing what we are doing is swimming? Do we have doubts that we are in water? Or do we know? Not an intellectual knowing, but a knowing that comes up from being chin deep in it...?

Gassho


Seiryu

[anista]

SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: I Don't Believe in Buddha!!

---
Matto wrote (for some reason the quoting thing doesn't work for me in this particular thread. Someone doesn't want me to quote Matto )
Belief isn't a prerequisite for investigation. You can say, "what that Buddha guy says makes a lot of sense; I think I will investigate it." You needn't say "what that Buddha guy says is right, I just know it, I *believe* it--now I'll investigate it.
---


If belief isn't a prerequisite for investigation, what made you start the investigation in the first place?

Perhaps you read something from the Buddha that struck a chord in you?

Perhaps, just perhaps, there was this little voice in your head telling you that all this that you see as reality, maybe isn't that real after all. Maybe all this suffering isn't what it seems ... And then, maybe you don't agree, or believe in this view of reality anymore ... BAM! That's a belief right there!

Investigation doesn't come from nowhere - it comes from a belief that you want to check out a bit closer. If you didn't have this belief, perhaps you just had a hunch, chances are that you hadn't acted on it at all.

That's my bet anyway (but you should know that I am terrible at betting )

[Seiryu]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: I Don't Believe in Buddha!!

If belief isn't a prerequisite for investigation, what made you start the investigation in the first place?

I understand your point here but I think it is not the same thing as belief.

One definition of belief that I came across was; "Assent to a proposition or affirmation, or the acceptance of a fact, opinion, or assertion as real or true, without immediate personal knowledge; reliance upon word or testimony; partial or full assurance without positive knowledge or absolute certainty.."

I think when we want to investigate something, like something said by the Buddha, what we are trying to do is see whether or not it is true, by having a direct experience of it ourselves. I do not think we are saying that it is true to begin with, I feel we are saying, "this sounds good, I wonder if it is true, or a load of crap."

Just some ideas...

Gassho

Seiryu

[anista]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: I Don't Believe in Buddha!!

Those are very good points, Seiryu.

I still believe though that this investigation we are conducting is more than just a check to see if it's true or not. It is a way too huge a commitment if we didn't have belief or faith that the Buddhadharma actually is true (but we still want to see it with our own eyes).

Thanissaro bhikku once wrote of faith in Buddhism, "If he [Buddha] had simply wanted you to trust your own unaided sense of right and wrong, why would he have left so many other teachings?". I tend to agree with this.

[Seiryu]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: I Don't Believe in Buddha!!

Very true. I was thinking about this a little today and I remember about the three pillars of traditional Buddhism. Great Determination, Great doubt, and Great Faith.

Determination to see into the truth of realty. The falling away of Body and mind.

Doubt to continue questioning and investigating.

But the Faith part has me thinking. You are right, that there has to be faith, otherwise why would we even sit in the first place? Sit quietly and stare at a wall for thirty minutes!! Hmmm There has to be faith to begin with to do that. But I think the difference between Buddhist faith and other faith is that eventually our faith is replaced, not with knowledge, but with understanding that has come out of directly realizing the Buddha's teachings. I guess when that happens, faith drops away...

interesting development....

Gassho

Seiryu

[Taigu]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: I Don't Believe in Buddha!!

Hi guys,

very unteresting posts...
Reading about your ramblings, I just wanted to add my own: you see, in our practice, faith doesn't mean to believe in something or somebody, faith is not a thought or impulse, faith cannot be seen on the map of our thinking land: faith arises from letting our body-mind and the body mind of others fall away. in other words, it is not what takes us to the cushion, to the practice period, to the retreat or the teacher, it is the flower that grows out of practice itself. Faith is another name for : being one with the one and the many. Or better, being neither one nor two. In Buddhism, the beyond is under our very feet. Faith is the body of action itself.
Faith is the dynamic bowing and stilling, and doing-undoing, working and resting. Carving a Buddha in the flesh, meeting fleshed Buddhas around. Celestial things, legends of old, palaces and Pure Lands, golden flashy sexy deities are mere reflections of this very reality we walk in, metaphorical aspects of the awakened activity. We don't need to buy them.

But I think the difference between Buddhist faith and other faith is that eventually our faith is replaced, not with knowledge, but with understanding that has come out of directly realizing the Buddha's teachings. I guess when that happens, faith drops away...

Yes, Seiryu, once you stop believing in Santa, you'll find Santa in true people. In that way, Santa lives, closer to you that in your wildest dreams. That intimacy is faith.

gassho


Taigu

[JohnsonCM]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: I Don't Believe in Buddha!!

Great Faith and Great Doubt.

This is why I have great faith in Buddhism, Sotoshu, and why I am thankful to call Jundo and Taigu my teachers. Every religion has an element of the fantastic. And truly, it is the religion that can strip away all the mummery and mysticism and still be wonderfully beautiful, meaningful, and relevant, that I can say I am thankful to have learned from.

Even Bodhidharma said "don't think about buddhas, your mind is the buddha. Don't use a buddha to worship a buddha." And not only did he say it, but in our faith we are secure enough to say that the sermon this came from probably wasn't even written by Bodhidharma. In fact, we can say that there are even Buddhist scholars that don't believe Bodhidharma even existed in the first place!

And it doesn't really matter one way or another, because Bodhidharma did write that sermon, even if it was with someone else's hand, and Bodhidharma exists right now, in every one of us reading this forum, in our co-workers, in the customer service representative we talk to when our cable breaks, ad infinitum.

[Kaishin]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: I Don't Believe in Buddha!!

This is a good discussion... Anista, I see what you mean now, and from that perspective there is indeed a type of "faith" that comes as part of practice. I think I have negative connotations with the word "faith," because of my exposure to the Abrahamic traditions. It immediately brings up the notions of *unquestioned* belief in fantastical things. But the concept of faith as a *questioned* belief makes a lot more sense.

Gassho,
Matt

[Saijun]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: I Don't Believe in Buddha!!

Hello friends,

I'm rather late to the party on this one, but I do appreciate both the video and accompanying discussion.

Thank you all.

Metta,

Saijun

[Jiki22]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: I Don't Believe in Buddha!!

that is exactly why i love Soto Zen,
straight to the point,
no nonsense,
100% real and reality


we get there! euh....we getting anywhere :?:

[Jundo]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: I Don't Believe in Buddha!!

that is exactly why i love Soto Zen,
straight to the point,
no nonsense,
100% real and reality


we get there! euh....we getting anywhere :?:

Hi Jiki,

Well, I am not sure that all "Soto Zen" (whatever that is) would put it just as I did, in the same words. Much of the Zen church can be pretty straight and conservative. However, at heart, I think all are in agreement.

Gassho, J

[Gregor]

Thank you just what this doubting thomas needed to find tonight. I don't trust in magic or mythology. But do know in my heart the good that the Buddhist path can do me and the good I can do in the world if I follow it. Nice to be reminded that belief in something that cannot be proven is not required

[Kotei]

Thank you, Gregor, for pushing up this thread in the list.

Discovering, that Shikantaza Zazen is part of the steep and serpentine path, I am walking, came (after trying) quite naturally.
Calling myself a "buddhist" however does not. And this has nothing to do with not accepting the buddhist teachings.
I've been resisting setting up an altar in my grasshut for quite some time. Some weeks ago, I did, leaving the statues place empty as a symbol for embracing the Void, not the Buddha (which I know is the same, but saying "Buddha" to it felt like cheating/betraying somehow).

I've arrived here with about twenty prior years practicing weekly (and the time between) in an old "humanistic" tradition from the west, that's trying to help/teach the individuals to make themselves a better person.
There are ancient rites, lots of special bowing, quite- and calmness and very lovely symbolism in it. But without being a religion.
There is also an altar, which isn't that different, from an buddhist altar. But it's only in the temple, not in the individual homes and only the keeper of the light (master/teacher) handles the symbols on it.

Personally, I have to be very careful, not to do things to "belong" to the others doing it, longing for acceptance, love and father figures.
Very recently, resisting is fading a little and curiosity and explorers mind gets on top again.

Thank you very much, Jundo for helping me exploring and smoothing my path, not only with this talk.
I am still not calling myself a "Buddhist", knowing that this is not the end-point in my development.

I am already writing too much, but that stroke my heart and had to be said.

By the way,
finding a small "Manjushri on Shishi" statue and a very nice Mokugyo made me ordering them (financial benefit of a Zendo-organisation).
The "seller" is from a different city, but visited his girlfriend in my hometown over this weekend. He asked if I'd like to receive the "wares" hand to hand, coming over for a short "hello".
I feel very much rewarded for giving my mind the chance to explore something more "traditional", like a Buddha-statue.
It turned out to be a very nice forenoon with a Soto monk and a Rinzai nun with silence and friendly talk in the garden.
I gave them some small Agarwood pieces as incense to express my thanks and they returned a piece of Palo santo wood as such.

I am so thankful for "giving Buddha a try" and getting to know this fine people.
Today, after sitting with this talk, chanting, offering incense (Palo santo this time) in front of Manjushri and Shishi felt so much the right thing...

Gassho!
Ralf sattoday,

[Byokan]

Thank you Jundo

Gassho
raindrop
sat today