SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: I Don't Believe in Buddha!!

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40269

    SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: I Don't Believe in Buddha!!

    .


    I have a confession to make: I don't believe in Buddha.

    It may be shocking for a Buddhist priest to say so, as shocking as hearing a Catholic priest say he "doesn't believe in Jesus". But it's true nonetheless. I am a Buddhist priest who thinks "Buddha" is largely bunk and baloney.

    At least, I think there's a lot of "bull" to how Buddha is typically portrayed. I think many of the utterly fantastic Mahayana Sutra stories of Buddhas are ridiculous ... hyper-exaggerated ... just unbelievable! (meaning that they cannot be literally believed any more than children's fairy tales). The imagery is incredibly beautiful ... but the tale just incredible nonsense, purely the product of human imagination. I think the image of a "Perfect Buddha" ... either in this world or some Buddha Land ... as a flawless being beyond all human weakness, conflict and ignorance ... is a fable, a religious myth. I think most of the old miracle filled stories are well meaning fictions, sometimes holy lies, and the golden statues and paintings of Buddhas are but depictions of exaggerated dreams.

    Oh, I believe that there was a man who lived whom we now call "the Buddha", but I think what happened over the centuries' is his victimhood to a process of hagiography. A Buddha or Ancestor dies (same for Jesus, saints and holy men in other religions) and ... century by century ... those in the religion (looking from afar at what the attainments actually were on the part of their "religious icon" and with need to depict the top value of the religion) go over the top, start to imagine, fantasize and exaggerate the wonderful nature of the teacher and teaching into something super-human. A flesh and blood teacher who was merely "Great, Profound and Wonderful" unfortunately becomes someone "Magical, Miraculous and Mythical" ... all to the point of Malarky. The worshipful dip the man in gold, remove all human qualities and gradually turn their hero into a statue, a super-hero. As a result, "Buddha" is no more real than "Beowulf" or "Batman".

    However ... my doubts about make believe "Buddhas" are not important to my Buddhist practice in the least.

    As well, although I do not believe in imaginary Buddhas ... I believe in Buddhas.

    Better said, I know Buddha for a fact!

    How? What? Let me explain.

    I believe in ... I KNOW ... Buddha in many ways, each Real as Real can be.

    One way is to see that such Buddhas (Bodhisattvas too) exist as a paradigm, an ideal, a goal representing the best of the human condition to which men and women can aspire. As I said in a talk last week on Kannon, the symbol of Compassion: It does not matter that she "may not be really real", for we make Kannon "really real" in life:


    I had a hard time, for many years, incorporating into my practice many figures such as Kannon and Jizo ...

    I have come to see "them" as archtypes, representing real characteristics of human life and (since we are just the universe) thus the universe.

    In other words: When we feel in our hearts and act upon Love and Compassion, thereby Love and Compassion exist as real, concrete aspects of the world which our hearts and acts create. There is no "inside" or "outside" ultimately, thus what is inside you is just as much "the universe" and concrete reality as the moon, gravity and the stars. That is "Kannon", in that way a real and concrete aspect and 'force' of the world. Her 1000 helping hands are our hands, and our actions make her real in the world.
    As with Bodhisattvas, so it is with the Buddha, all the Buddhas. Wisdom and Compassion realized in each of us is the realization (meaning both "the discovery" and "the making real") of Buddha in the world. We make Buddha real, Kannon and the other Bodhisattvas too. (Mara and the Devil too if we act badly).

    Next, I believe in the Buddha when I prove the worth of the Buddha's Teachings in my own life. The proof here is right in life's pudding. The Teachings are the Truth of Buddha that we can each verify in our lives. The Heart of the Buddha's teachings ... the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path, Non-Self, Non-Attachment, Dependent Origination, the Middle Way, so much more, ... are all here now and can be known to all of us ... worth the whole ticket of admission!

    What's more, I recognize that the fantastic stories, the idealized images of Buddhas ... even the most incredible allegories and hallucinatory images of the Mahayana Sutras ... are merely attempts to convey these wondrous Truths and Teachings, to show their power. Even if I do not take the Sutra stories literally, I can dig what they are trying to say behind the wild way they do it. In that way, even the most bizarre image found in some Sutra tale is True if the Teaching it attempts to convey is True.

    And ultimately, although I do not believe at all in so-called "Awakened Buddhas who have mastered the Dharma 100% and are Perfect Beings beyond all human flaws" ... I believe through and through in "Awakened Buddhas who have mastered the Dharma 100% and are Perfect Beings beyond all human flaws".

    Huh? Sounds like a contradiction there? Sounds like I am speaking out of both sides of my no sided mouth? Well, get over it. This Buddhist Way allows for countless "contradictions" held in total harmony!

    You see, I believe in Buddhas who are Perfectly Buddha, Perfectly Reality ... beyond small human concepts of the "pure" and "impure", fully manifesting and enlivening the Dance of Emptiness. That is a kind of Purity and Perfection when there is dropped all human judgments of the stained vs. the pure. I believe in Buddhas who are always moral, never breaking a Precept ... for there is no Precept that can ever be broken, nothing to steal or do violence to, and no separate 'other' to take or injure in any way. Yes, Virginia, there is a Buddha beyond all thought of lack or flaw! In fact, in the realm of Real Buddha, even small minded judgments of "real" and "unreal" cleanly drop away.

    And when we couple this Great Buddha with the Buddhas we make real in our lives ... by manifesting Wisdom and Compassion in our thoughts, words and acts ... we have a way to manifest that Perfect Buddha right here in the Saha world. We do our best in this life to live Compassionately by the Precepts avoiding harm. We fill ourselves with Prajna Wisdom, seeing this world for the 'dream within a dream' it truly is. At the moment, Buddha and all the Great Bodhisattvas are also real as real can be, walking the earth.

    The extreme and exaggerated stories of Buddhas' powers are but a mental mirror reflection of human imperfections, extrapolated to the ultimate by men based on seeing what men are now not. These images are themselves just 'Made in Samsara'. Paintings of 'Nirvana' are themselves imperfect goods of Samsara! Yet, there is Nirvana, this Perfection swallowing all small human mirages of perfection and imperfection ... and such is Buddha!

    Thus, Buddhas are but fables and lies, Buddhas are human aspirations, Buddhas are True Teachings, Buddhas are Whole and Complete beyond "full" or "lack", Buddhas live and breathe in the world when we live and breath like Buddhas.


    The Buddhist Path is Real



    Liberation is Real



    Buddha is Real



    Today’s Sit-A-Long video follows at this link. Remember: recording ends soon after the beginning bells; a sitting time of 15 to 35 minutes is recommended.

    Last edited by Jundo; 07-23-2022, 02:25 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
  • ghop
    Member
    • Jan 2010
    • 438

    #2
    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: I Don't Believe in Buddha

    Thanks Jundo for upholding human reason. A no-mind is a terrible thing to waste.

    gassho
    Greg

    Comment

    • Shogen
      Member
      • Dec 2008
      • 301

      #3
      Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: I Don't Believe in Buddha!!

      Perhaps we should call this teaching Buddha with the bullshit removed. Priced just right to make admission a good value. Gassho, Shogen

      Comment

      • Myoku
        Member
        • Jul 2010
        • 1491

        #4
        Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: I Don't Believe in Buddha!!

        Thank you Jundo,
        thank you cat,
        not believing is questioning, where else could that lead, if not to buddha?
        _()_
        Peter

        Comment

        • anista
          Member
          • Dec 2009
          • 262

          #5
          Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: I Don't Believe in Buddha!!

          Very nice post, Jundo.

          It is also very interesting that there are passages in the Pali canon, and the Chinese ?gamas, where the Buddha for example shows anger or joy or feels irritated (especially concerning Devadatta). Why keep these passages if not to show that the Buddha was a human after all? I prefer to see him as a master of his art. For example, a master archer is better than novices at archery, does fewer mistakes, and can probably speak more truth about archery than most others. But he can still miss his target once in a while.

          It seems even the Buddha has problems being a perfect Buddha.

          Thank you.
          The mind does not know itself; the mind does not see itself
          The mind that fabricates perceptions is false; the mind without perceptions is nirv??a

          Comment

          • Kaishin
            Member
            • Dec 2010
            • 2322

            #6
            Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: I Don't Believe in Buddha!!

            Jundo, it's posts like these that reaffirm my commitment to Soto and to your no-nonsense teaching style.
            Thanks,
            Kaishin (開心, Open Heart)
            Please take this layman's words with a grain of salt.

            Comment

            • Jundo
              Treeleaf Founder and Priest
              • Apr 2006
              • 40269

              #7
              Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: I Don't Believe in Buddha!!

              Originally posted by Matto
              Jundo, it's posts like these that reaffirm my commitment to Soto and to your no-nonsense teaching style.
              Well, Matto, thank you. I am "no nonsense" between my nonsense!

              But not the whole "Soto" world would agree with what I have to say. In our book club, for example, 'ol Master Keizan was truly a fan of the old legends and miracle stories, wasn't he? Dogen was too, although we are talking folks back in the 13th century. Even today, I think that many many folks in the Soto world would not challenge the literalness of many of the old stories and religious figures.

              Actually, I am a "fan" too of what the legends have to teach between and behind the words, although I tend not to take most too literally.

              Gassho, J
              ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

              Comment

              • Nenka
                Member
                • Aug 2010
                • 1238

                #8
                Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: I Don't Believe in Buddha!!

                Ah, thank you. I appreciate this one a lot.

                Gassho,

                Jennifer

                Comment

                • Hoyu
                  Member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 2020

                  #9
                  Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: I Don't Believe in Buddha!!

                  Finally someone has the balls to say what needs to be said! I completely agree. Deep gassho to you for this Jundo Sensei _/_
                  Ho (Dharma)
                  Yu (Hot Water)

                  Comment

                  • Heisoku
                    Member
                    • Jun 2010
                    • 1338

                    #10
                    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: I Don't Believe in Buddha!!

                    Thank you Jundo.
                    Heisoku 平 息
                    Every day is a journey, and the journey itself is home. (Basho)

                    Comment

                    • Onshin
                      Member
                      • Jul 2010
                      • 462

                      #11
                      Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: I Don't Believe in Buddha!!

                      Thank you Jundo, a wonderful down to Earth teaching that encompasses the universe (all of them). Nice to see master TinTin so active again, glad he had the respect to honour the Buddha before running around.
                      "This traceless enlightenment continues endlessly" (Dogen Zenji)

                      Comment

                      • Adrian
                        Member
                        • Apr 2011
                        • 69

                        #12
                        Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: I Don't Believe in Buddha!!

                        Thank you, Sensei.

                        I'm a newbie to Soto and Treeleaf. I like shikantaza, but I don't know if I'm a Soto person or not, so being new and relatively confused I can't comment on the wisdom of your remarks.

                        I don't ever think about Kannon or Jizo, by whatever names they're known around the world, though the former (Kuan Im) has a big following in Thailand among the Sino-Thais, a bit like the Virgin Mary. Having first learned about Buddhism in the Theravada tradition, the Mahayana saints were never mentioned to me. I don't think Thich Nhat Hanh talks about them either.

                        I wonder if Soto is Buddhism? I don't mind if it is or it isn't. Indeed, maybe it's better if it isn't. Your comments suggest to me that it both is and isn't, and that seems good to me. Maybe it's "Buddhism with the bullshit removed", as Shogen said, but for many people the bullshit is important and compassion demands that we respect that.

                        Nothing shocks me any more. For a Zen Buddhist priest to say he doesn't believe in the Buddha doesn't shock me in the least, because I know he's saying he doesn't believe in projected images as anything other than projected images. (At least I think that's what he's saying.)

                        Sorry to go on. I enjoyed your piece, Jundo Sensei, but you can see it's set me off. I could go on .... (and on ...)

                        Comment

                        • Jundo
                          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                          • Apr 2006
                          • 40269

                          #13
                          Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: I Don't Believe in Buddha!!

                          Originally posted by Adrian
                          ... I know he's saying he doesn't believe in projected images as anything other than projected images. (At least I think that's what he's saying.)
                          Yes, that is what he thinks he is saying too. 8)
                          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                          Comment

                          • Hoyu
                            Member
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 2020

                            #14
                            Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: I Don't Believe in Buddha!!

                            I grew up under similar story centered around religion. That of Santa Claus. From what I have read the name comes from the bastardization of the pronunciation of Saint Nicholas's name. Saint Nicholas, like the Buddha, was at one time a real man. Who did many wonderful things. But climbing down chimneys I am sure wasn't one of them. When I was a kid I believed all the fantastical stories of him. Then there came a day as I grew a little older that I rejected it as just a fable. Now as an adult I have come around to that original belief. With a twist. I now believe in the spirit of Santa. Everyone has in them the ability to express the virtues he idealizes. Just like everyone has in them a Buddha. Through that is what makes them both real to me now. I do respect all the fantastical stories of Bodhisattvas and the Buddha. Just like I enjoy the stories of Santa. I don't believe that they have to be rejected just because one sees through the mystical but can still be embraced and enjoyed. But enjoyed for what they are. At times just metaphors. I don't have to say much more about it because Jundo's words are far better and already explain what I am trying to get at anyway.

                            Gassho,
                            John
                            Ho (Dharma)
                            Yu (Hot Water)

                            Comment

                            • Hoyu
                              Member
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 2020

                              #15
                              Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: I Don't Believe in Buddha!!

                              Arian wrote:
                              "but for many people the bullshit is important and compassion demands that we respect that."

                              Hi Adrian,
                              This teaching must seem shocking/disrespectful if one, like yourself, is rather new to Treeleaf and hasn't seen more of Jundo sensei's teachings. Trust me, from someone who has been around this sangha for a while Jundo sensei has the utmost respect for the traditions of Buddhism. Just watch the "Whattsa Who'sa Bodhisattva?" series and you will see that even though those stories are also wrought with the same mysticism he seems to speak ill of here he still treats them with respect and seriousness.


                              Gassho,
                              John
                              Ho (Dharma)
                              Yu (Hot Water)

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