SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

[Shokai]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

John Lenon was probably thinking that when he wrote "Imagine."

Imagine if all sentient beings were loving, grateful and kind;
Just Like Louis Armstrong sang, "What a Wonderful World" it would be.

[Dosho]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

Hi all,

We need evil? We need the devil? I'm not sure I understand this and some of your words make my point for me. I think evil is the word we give to behavior and intention that we do not understand. I can think of few if any examples of "evil" that can not be explained by such unbearable pain that the mind has turned against human nature. Hitler, often used as an example of pure evil, was abused, neglected, and never encouraged in his one true passion as a youth: painting. If he had been, would he have become "evil"? I'm not sure, but I would like to think not.

Child abuse is of course a terrible, awful thing that I hope anyone would choose to eliminate from the universe if we could. But we can't! And I think it is our discomfort with such things that tends to put them in such absolute terms like "evil". Are people who abuse children evil? I don't think so...I believe they are very sick and probably needed help and did not receive it. Many were abused themselves and don't know any other way of existing on this Earth. Does that make them evil? I really do not believe that to be the case.

The human mind aches to classify things in a thumbs up, thumbs down manner and "good vs. evil" provides its own yummy candy where it can create absolute categories that describe things easily and simply. But as we all know life is not simple. I've said it before, but if I had a time machine and could go back in time I wouldn't kill Hitler as others have stated. I'd give his younger self a scholarship to the Academy of Fine Arts in Vienna, cure his brother's measles, and tell his father to let him follow his dreams. Killing him would do nothing but destroy the early promise of any youth and the history books would likely find someone else to take his place. Would evil have been destroyed? No...just a little boy.

we have the power to think, choose, needlessly hurt and kill ... or choose not

If only this were true. Some do not have the ability to do these things or to be "good" and the quest to be such can drive those with mental illness even further into their pain and suffering. Is it possible to stop this classification of good and evil? I doubt it...but can we at least just go with compassion for even the most vile acts for at least a short while and see how that feels?

Gassho,
Dosho

[Jinyu]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

Is it possible to stop this classification of good and evil? I doubt it...but can we at least just go with compassion for even the most vile acts for at least a short while and see how that feels?

We can try!
Thank you for this Dosho, and for thanks to Jundo.

gassh,
Jinyu

[Jundo]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

If only this were true. Some do not have the ability to do these things or to be "good" and the quest to be such can drive those with mental illness even further into their pain and suffering. Is it possible to stop this classification of good and evil? I doubt it...but can we at least just go with compassion for even the most vile acts for at least a short while and see how that feels?

Gassho,
Dosho

Thank you, Dosho. This is a very important reminder.

We must never lose the perspective wherein even the violent rapist and child abuser is himself a victim of greed, anger and ignorance, and perhaps himself a product of the Karma of past greed, anger and ignorance inflicted on him years before in his own youth (I use the male "him" here, but I refer to anyone). The real "evil doer" is greed, anger and ignorance.

That does not mean, by the way, that society does not need to take steps to prevent or stop the rapist or child abuser and the like, even if the rapist and abuser is himself a "victim." In my view, if necessary, take the most extreme of these folks, throw them in a cell (with all human rights, of course) and throw away the key if that is what is needed to get them "off the streets" and away from kids and such. Personally, I favor treating those who do violent crimes such as rape, child abuse and cruel violence as ultimately medical and psychiatric cases ... and I do not think our prisons are the appropriate grounds for dealing with these issues. I hope we can, someday, cure the tendency toward violent crime much as we cure many neurological conditions ... with a proper understanding of the brain, hormones, and the like. However, until we get to that point where we can find a "medicine to cure child abuse" ... we need to lock these people up. A policeman is justified in taking life if reasonably believed necessary to save lives ... even if taking life is best avoided if at all possible. That is my view (and of most Buddhists I know too ... a subject discussed in greater detail during our Precept's study on "Preserving Life") ...

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2969

But, even in doing all that ... we must never lose sight that the real "evil doer" is greed, anger and ignorance ... not the person doing the evil.

On the other hand, Buddhism has always upheld that we are each responsible for our own Karma, our own choices and volitional acts. Maybe Hitler was just a victim of greed, anger and ignorance and the Karmic scars of a horrible childhood ... but Hitler was also responsible for his acts if he had a choice and sense of wrong and the pain he was inflicting on others. (This is not unlike that criminal law in most western countries, which typically provides that criminals are responsible for their intentional acts unless they were so insane at the time as to be beyond knowing "right from wrong" completely ... beyond awareness of the harm caused by the act ... such as a true psychopath. Such cases are actually quite rare.)

Finally, I hope that victims of child abuse or rape (the abused child or raped woman) can learn to let the past go ... learn to see their abuser as himself a victim ... move forward so that the violence does not repeat into the next generation. I hope that they come to see the real culprit as "greed, anger and ignorance." HOWEVER, I often also counsel that it is not so easy ... that there are real scars from these events, not all seen on the skin. While letting the past go, trying to not fall into new anger ... one must sometimes also see the scar as the scar sometimes, recognize that it is natural to feel anger and resentment at the attacker ... even as one tries to forgive on some level, see the "real evil" on some level, not be trapped by the anger and resentment and let it go.

Anyway, I wandered a bit off the topic here ...

Gassho, J

[Dosho]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

On the other hand, Buddhism has always upheld that we are each responsible for our own Karma, our own choices and volitional acts. Maybe Hitler was just a victim of greed, anger and ignorance and the Karmic scars of a horrible childhood ... but Hitler was also responsible for his acts if he had a choice and sense of wrong and the pain he was inflicting on others. (This is not unlike that criminal law in most western countries, which typically provides that criminals are responsible for their intentional acts unless they were so insane at the time as to be beyond knowing "right from wrong" completely ... beyond awareness of the harm caused by the act ... such as a true psychopath. Such cases are actually quite rare.)

Certainly I would never have argued that Hitler should be simply forgiven for his crimes or taken to a psychiatric hospital without punishment....or that a child abuser should go free and be unaccounted for because he (or she) was abused as a child. And I would never ask a victim of such people to let go of their pain easily or otherwise. All I hope is that in the midst of so much greed, anger, and ignorance that there be just a small spark of compassion, if nothing else to see where our own feelings and thoughts could lead us. I think just a moment of compassion for those thought of as evil would do a lot of good in this world.

[Jundo]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

I think just a moment of compassion for those thought of as evil would do a lot of good in this world.

Dosho, I so much agree. We must hold compassion, offer Metta, even for Hitler, society's worst enemies and those that hurt terribly us and others. They are still sentient beings and, if not filled with delusion, would not be who they are.

I just stumbled on this article, which ties in ...

Kids' brains may hold clues to future criminals

http://pagingdrgupta.blogs.cnn.com/2011 ... /?hpt=Sbin

Who is going to grow up to become a criminal or psychopath?

Current research in genetics and neuroscience may point towards answers to this question, opening up a whole host of ethical questions about culpability, justice and treatment.

"Is there truly freedom of will, as the law assumes? Freedom of will may not be as free as many of us may think," said Adrian Raine of the University of Pennsylvania.

Experiments by Raine have found that by looking at the brains of 3-year-old children, scientists could already see signs of potential trouble in the future. Raine discussed this research Monday at the American Association for the Advancement of Science annual meeting in Washington.

Those who had poor amygdala function at that time were more likely to become criminal offenders later in life, in the 20-year time span during which the scientists followed them. The amygdala is an almond-shaped brain area associated with fear, and it appears that a trend among offenders is that fear conditioning is impaired. Researchers did not directly measure amygdala function in a brain scanner, but used the children's fear responses to an anticipated punishment as a proxy for that.

In fact, adult psychopaths appear to have an 18% reduction of the volume of the amygdala compared with non-psychopaths. This difference might explain why psychopaths lack remorse, fear and guilt. (Interestingly, white-collar criminals actually show enhanced brain function in decision-making and other cognitive skills, according to Raine's unpublished research).

He also noted that a brain region called the orbital frontal cortex tends to be associated with being antisocial when its volume is smaller; as a group, men have a smaller orbital frontal cortex than women, which may help explain why men as a whole tend to commit more crimes than women.

Raine is not saying that this is a perfect predictive tool; it's not going to point to which individual child is going to commit a crime. Moreover, all of the data he reports is correlational, meaning he hasn't proven that these brain abnormalities cause criminal behavior. But it doesn't seem to make as much sense to think that living a criminal lifestyle would cause impaired fear conditioning, as it would the other way around, he said.

There is also evidence that what psychologists call "callous-unemotional traits" in childhood are risk factors for becoming a psychopath. Such traits include a lack of guilt about wrongdoings, absence of feelings or emotions, unhelpfulness to someone in need and unkindness to other children.

New research in the Journal of Abnormal Psychology, also presented at the conference, looked at more than 9,500 children when they were ages 7, 9 and 12 from the United Kingdom's Twin Early Development Study. Researchers led by Natalie Fontaine at Indiana University showed that children who had hyperactivity, peer problems and emotional problems at 12 years old tended to have had increased levels of such callous-unemotional traits and conduct problems earlier in childhood.

Because participants were twins, the researchers were also able to look at genetics, and found a strong heritability for boys with high levels of persistent callous-unemotional traits. For girls with these traits that did not change much over time, environmental factors seemed to be more important.

We can look at these associations, but biology and genetics are not destiny. There will never be a perfectly accurate predictor of who will grow up to be an offender, Raine said. And 80% of delinquent adolescents do not continue to offend in adulthood, said Dustin Pardini of University of Pittsburgh Medical Center.

But by better understanding how these behaviors developed, early interventions can be adjusted to specific needs, Fontaine said.

The question from all of this becomes: If psychopaths are the way they are because of brain abnormalities or genetic influences already apparent in childhood, and should they be punished as to the same degree as other criminals?

And if they should get special treatment, "Is that not a slippery slope toward Armageddon, where none of us are responsible for our actions, because all actions and behaviors come from our brain?" Raine said.

The extent to which biological factors should play a role in the justice system is an open and highly controversial question, as is the extent to which biological interventions should be developed to reduce crime, Raine said. Preliminary research has shown that omega-3 may reduce criminal offending in prison; this is just one line of future inquiry.

What do you think: If neurological and genetic factors out of a person's control contribute to criminal offending, do we need to rethink how they are punished? If we punish people to deter others from committing crimes, does that make sense if psychopaths aren't afraid of t

[Dosho]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

Thanks for this article Jundo...very interesting.

[Myoku]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

I think just a moment of compassion for those thought of as evil would do a lot of good in this world.

Dosho, I so much agree. We must hold compassion, offer Metta, even for Hitler, society's worst enemies and those that hurt terribly us and others. They are still sentient beings and, if not filled with delusion, would not be who they are.

Thank you, its so true ... stuffed with delusion, every little
transformation of delusion is so important, a never-ending task,
_()_
Peter

[Onshin]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

Abso-bloody-lutely Dosho, I agree wholehartedly with everything you said.

[Graceleejenkins]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

Watching my Mom change from Alzheimer’s, I have come to realize just how significantly brain chemistry can affect not only memory, but basic personality. I can imagine that a lot of “evil” behavior may be attributable to brain disorders. I’m sure that there is probably a point where strength of will is not enough to overcome a chemical disorder. To the best of our ability, we should try to help cure such conditions once symptoms become unmanageable. Barring the current ability to help heal the physical condition, it may be necessary to take humane and caring precautions to protect others.
Gassho, Grace.

[Hoyu]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

Thank you Jundo Sensei for reviving this WHATSA BODHISATTVA series.

Gassho,
John

[Byokan]

Anyway ... let's be good.

Gassho, J

Gassho
Lisa
sat today

[Onkai]

Thank you, Jundo, for this talk, and to everyone for the discussion. Yes, "let's be good," as Jundo said, and work toward eradicating greed, hatred and ignorance.

Gassho,
Onkai
SatToday