SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

[Jundo]

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For the next few "sit-a-longs", I'm going to revive a series from awhile back on WHATSA BODHISATTVA, looking at some of the greats ... Avalokite?vara (Kannon), Samantabhadra and others. Before, we looked at each of the traditional Virtues, the 'Perfections' of a Bodhisattva ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/cgi-bin/mt/mt-s ... 2&limit=20

Today, though, let's talk about the Devil, Satan, Mara, Evil ...

Oh, I believe in the Devil! Bodhisattvas too.

Today’s Sit-A-Long video follows at this link. Remember: recording ends soon after the beginning bells; a sitting time of 20 to 35 minutes is recommended.

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[Dokan]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

Thank you for this Jundo.

I had heard you talking to the visitors at last night's Zazenkai about the bodhisattvas and was happy to see this thread this morning.

I have to admit I have much confusion on this topic so looking forward to learning more.

Gassho,

Shawn

[Shokai]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

Ahh, to be a hi-tech Bodhisattva ! Jundo-oso, I love your passion and inspiration. Thank you and Please keep it coming!!

[Rimon]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

Thank you for this Jundo.
I have to admit I have much confusion on this topic so looking forward to learning more.

I'm looking forward too.

I also enjoyed the idea of not rushing to read a book, just picking a few paragraphs and let it rest. I tend to read any book as if it was a detective novel, rushing to reach the end and read "who did it"

Gassho

Rimon

[Heisoku]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

Thank you Jundo.
I have a list of Upaya's as countermeasures against those negative elements above my desk.
Just to keep reminding myself, again and again and again!

[Nenka]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

Like Shawn, I have a lot of confusion with this too.

Aren't we supposed to be dropping all thoughts of "good" and "evil"? Or is this one of those "two sides of a no-sided mouth" kinda things?

Gassho

Jennifer

[Dokan]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

Small FYI to this...

I have some stuff to do around the house today so I thought I'd convert the 11 talks from 2009 Jundo referenced in this thread to be on our podcast. Here's the link in case anyone else would like a listen:

http://treeleaf.podbean.com/2009/

iTunes should show up in a day or so (they are sometimes slow on updating their podcast info).

Gassho,

Shawn

[Taylor]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

Like Shawn, I have a lot of confusion with this too.

Aren't we supposed to be dropping all thoughts of "good" and "evil"? Or is this one of those "two sides of a no-sided mouth" kinda things?

Gassho

Jennifer

If I may:

Good and evil are relative, not absolute. As the saying goes, "one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter". The words have no fixed meaning.

Even still, there are deplorable actions in the world. So yes, more than likely the no-sided mouth as I myself have become confused while typing this :P

Anyways!

Gassho.

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

The Buddha said: Do good, do no harm, still your mind.

But as Taylor pointed out, there are few people who do evil for evils sake other than in James Bond movies. They do it out of the three poisons, greed, hate and ignorance. Is the suicide bomber evil? He probably thinks of himself as a self-sacrificing hero and freedom fighter. No bad karma in suicide bombing, is there..?

In order to do good and avoid doing harm, must we not try to see dharmas for what they are, and try not to discriminate into good and bad, desirable and non-desirable? This is why we practice isn't it? Learning how to do good, do no harm, still our minds.

I'm looking forward to Jundo's response!

Gassho,
Pontus

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

Taylor wrote:
"Good and evil are relative, not absolute."

BTW, can the Mara be viewed as absolute evil and the Buddha as absolute compassion?

[Jundo]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

Yes, two sides of the no-sided mouth.

Here is my very simple minded view on this ...

There is a realm encountered in dropping all human judgments of "right vs. wrong" "good vs. evil" "justice and injustice" and all the rest ... whereby everything is Right Where It Is, and there is thus a Peace of One-Piece which sweeps in all "peace and war". Putting aside all human weighing of "justice" and "injustice" ... there is a great Justice of Things Just As They Are. Beyond seeing a world of "life and death", there is that flowing stream that was never born and never dies (as human judgments of "starts and finishes" fall away). No "you and me" there or (seen from another angle) there are "you and me" constantly being "born and dying" ... and that is Okay, for all is Just the Great Going.

This is often called the "Buddha Realm". Nirvana.

But, also, we live in a world of you and me, birth and death, war and peace, great good and great evil, justice and injustice. Samsara.

We may encounter Samsara as Just Nirvana ... but Samsara is Samsara nonetheless. We live in this complicated world of "war and peace" and all the rest, and much of what we make of it, and our lives, is up to us.

I agree that, in this world, so many questions of ethics and "right and wrong" may be gray areas, with few blacks and whites. One man's "terrorist" or "senseless war" may be another's "freedom fighter" and "revolution" ... one man's "cancer" may also be just nature's way of keeping species evolution rolling along ... one man's "armed robbery" may also be someone trying to feed a hungry family.

Other "evils" may be a bit clearer. Violent rape and child abuse seem as clear evils (even if we see the abuser as, perhaps, just a scarred victim of past abuse himself). Selling drugs to kids is hard to justify. Mass slaughter of innocents is also hard to justify (Oh, I am sure that some "devils advocate" could lawyer up a "positive side" to even that! ... Maybe its good effect on population control or the like! :twisted: ) Even if we know that the child abuser or rapist is too just a victim of "greed, anger and ignorance", we can still put the person in jail or take other steps to keep the innocent victims safe. (We should see everyone here as a "victim" of greed, anger and ignorance ... and should avoid additional anger ourselves ... but we can take action to step the evil nonetheless).

I believe that the Buddhist Precepts generally guide us toward a world and life where we live in peace, avoiding anger and violence. We do not steal, or take in excess. Likewise, we live in a world where everyone should have a right to a peaceful life, with sufficient food, a roof over their head, access to medical care and education (this is my interpretation of the Precepts). I do not think that the Precepts always give us a "black/white" answer on every ethical question (as shown by our very many "gray areas" encountered as we were preparing for Jukai). But I do believe that they point us generally in the right direction, and offer very clear "rights and wrongs" on so many questions.

About to stick a needle in your arm, or miss the AA meeting and hit the bottle? The Precepts offer a solid guide in what should be done and not done. About to fly off the handle and hit someone with a baseball bat? The Precepts offer a solid guide in what not to do. About to rob a bank just to buy a new tv ... the Precepts offer a solid guide ... etc. etc.

We are to free ourselves of greed, anger and ignorance ... and do good, avoiding evil as best we can ...

... all while dropping all thought of "Good" and "Evil" ... knowing that Realm free of Greed, Anger and Ignorance. ALL AT ONCE!

Something like that (I have the flu today. Rather bad for me, good for the virus :shock: )

Gassho, J

[Shogen]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

I often wonder if the Devil is none other than our wanton Self. As the self takes hold and matures so too does the Devil. Thank you Jundo for this most provoking "sit-a-long." Gassho, Zak

[Myoku]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

Thanks Jundo,
_()_
Peter

[Ronchan]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

Yes, I think you are right, Jundo: we need the devil, we need evil.
Because I believe Buddha might have been thinking along these lines when he said " There has to be evil so that good can prove its purity above it".
I'm not always happy with that, this almost mandatory presence of evil. It makes people feel restless, anxious and generates this general feeling of 'bad things' that will probably/certainly happen at some point. To me as well as to others ...

But Buddha also said " When one has the feeling of dislike for evil, when one feels tranquil, one finds pleasure in listening to good teachings; when one has these feelings and appreciates them, one is free of fear".

Well...what can I say? Thank you for your good teachings, Jundo sensei,

Deep bows,
Ronald.

[Jundo]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

Yes, I think you are right, Jundo: we need the devil, we need evil.
Because I believe Buddha might have been thinking along these lines when he said " There has to be evil so that good can prove its purity above it".
I'm not always happy with that, this almost mandatory presence of evil. It makes people feel restless, anxious and generates this general feeling of 'bad things' that will probably/certainly happen at some point. To me as well as to others ...

But Buddha also said " When one has the feeling of dislike for evil, when one feels tranquil, one finds pleasure in listening to good teachings; when one has these feelings and appreciates them, one is free of fear".

Well...what can I say? Thank you for your good teachings, Jundo sensei,

Deep bows,
Ronald.

Well, certainly if we did not have "good and evil", we would be lacking the choice and free will that makes humans human. It might not be the way I would have designed things if I were the boss of the universe (I would eliminate a few things ... child abuse for one ... while keeping the rest of our 'free will'). But, because we are not rocks, we are not trees ... we have the power to think, choose, needlessly hurt and kill ... or choose not.

I am hoping that we can soon manage to remove child abuse and such from our world, war and hunger and some other things too. Then, gee, it will be a pretty good world if ya think about it. Like an old house that is a "fixer upper", but is lovely once the work is done.

Anyway ... let's be good.

Gassho, J