SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Eido's Shame ...

[Jundo]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Eido's Shame ...

I think the matter is pretty clear-cut and simple. Boot the fuckhead.

Well, that last part is just where Buddhist Practice comes into play.

With Right Speech, and avoidness of angry words and feelings, with gentleness and non-violence (as much as possible), a firm hand and not a "boot" and a dirty name ... the situation is handled properly nonetheless.

It is important to remember that, in this world, even the most hate-filled of us ... that fellow who slaughtered people in Arizona last week, the great demons of history ... are too just victims of greed, anger and ignorance. If they were not, they would not be as they are. We may still put the fellow in jail or even, when necessary, the police or soldiers may need to shoot the violent harm-doer to stop him in the middle of his actions ... people still bear responsibility for their volitional acts, and should not escape that ... but always seeing that the real enemy is not the person, but the devils of greed, anger and ignorance.

So, I would avoid the "boot" and the "name calling" even if removing Mr. Shimano, helping the victims and punishing. The most appropriate punishment may be to allow the person to reflect on his actions, or to be placed in a situation whereby suffering is encountered for suffering done to others that encourages that self-reflection (such as causing a 'respected teacher' to suddenly be not respected or a teacher).

The best way to celebrate Martin Luther King's Holiday (which was this week in the U.S.).

Gassho, Jundo

[Shonin]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Eido's Shame ...

I'm not saying he isn't worthy of compassion. But i feel the best thing to do is to remove him from the sangha and it's accompanying organizations. I am not familiar with him as I am not familiar with many of the well-known teachers.
I can't dispute his undeerstanding of the Dharma whatsoever. But, it doesn't change the fact of what he did. I'm not completely dismissing him as an individual. But a douche deserving of our compassion is still a douche. And frankly, I would like to see some charges pressed. He does deserve to pay for his crimes. I mean this isn't a little ooops, it's a very very large one.

[Jundo]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Eido's Shame ...

I'm not saying he isn't worthy of compassion. But i feel the best thing to do is to remove him from the sangha and it's accompanying organizations. I am not familiar with him as I am not familiar with many of the well-known teachers.
I can't dispute his undeerstanding of the Dharma whatsoever. But, it doesn't change the fact of what he did. I'm not completely dismissing him as an individual. But a douche deserving of our compassion is still a douche. And frankly, I would like to see some charges pressed. He does deserve to pay for his crimes. I mean this isn't a little ooops, it's a very very large one.

I understand and agree on all points ... but hesitate to call someone a "douche" or a "fuckhead" ... even if their actions are such. Why bring more aggression, even a little through small words, into the world? Even the true monsters of this world should, like the lion with the thorn in the old fairy tales, be seen as victims of their suffering. We should try to remove the thorn, not call them a name.

I know that we have had the discussion before about "that is just how folks talk" ... but still, we practice not doing what everyone does "just because everyone does it" sometimes.

Gassho, J

[Shonin]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Eido's Shame ...

Well LOL, while i do feel i have become a bit nicer and LESS harsh in speaking. I do still have a potty mouth. That is a flaw i cannot contest.Not that i'm disagreeing with you on the topic. Just saying.

[Seiryu]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Eido's Shame ...

Agreed, he should be punished and removed. But it Is also a reminder that just because someone has the title of Roshi doesn't mean they are freed from ego. It's sad that such things happen, but some people just can't control themselves. Doesn't excuse their actions, but it makes me think; "why would a teacher of the precepts do such a thing?" It's one thing to have a formal relationship with a student (which is troublesome too) but downright sexual abuse!
Someone like him needs a lot more practice. Years and titles mean nothing! In fact those things can increase ego instead of getting rid of it. Shame~

Gassho

Seiryu

[Nenka]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Eido's Shame ...

Agreed, he should be punished and removed. But it Is also a reminder that just because someone has the title of Roshi doesn't mean they are freed from ego. It's sad that such things happen, but some people just can't control themselves. Doesn't excuse their actions, but it makes me think; "why would a teacher of the precepts do such a thing?"

I'll go you one better. It makes me think, "why would a sangha, a lot of teachers in the know, and a review board all ignore the problem for forty+ years?" Why were the people who tried to speak out about it over the years silenced? I agree; this man clearly can't control himself. But I am more angered . . . saddened . . . disgusted by the culture of complacency that continues to surround him.

[Shonin]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Eido's Shame ...

Jennifer, but even stranger is the fact there were students over the years who left. But then actually came back. I am totally baffled by the whole situation.

[Seiryu]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Eido's Shame ...

I found this quote today and I think this is a good place for it:

"When teachers break the precepts,
behaving in ways that are clearly damaging to themselves and others, students must face the situation,
even though this can be challenging, criticize openly, that's the only way."
His Holiness the Dalai Lama

Gassho


Seiryu

[Shonin]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Eido's Shame ...

I think another thing that baffles me about this is also how some folks seem soo self important as to make demands as if they have some special status. Making one's opinion is known, sending letters telling them step by step what to do, i dunno about so much ( would of course depend on the individual). If victims were to demand, that is one thing. Peers such as other teachers ( like the Mighty Jundo here : ) ) are different. But some people just seem so full of themselves.

[Stephanie]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Eido's Shame ...

I think there's a number of factors here.

One, and perhaps the biggest one, is that things like this can go on as long as they do in "spiritual communities" because of idealism. What I mean by that is that the desire to believe in transcendence and enlightenment, the desire to believe that "my teacher" is a "great teacher," and any other number of dreams and wishes, get in the way of acknowledging even the most obvious imperfections in a teacher. To admit that your teacher is a sexual predator is to admit that a lot of what you believed in is false. This is very difficult.

People claim to come to Zen wanting to let go of false beliefs, but most of us start out with a lot of beliefs we want to preserve and want to have validated for us. I personally don't think most people let themselves go all the way through the process of disillusionment. It is painful and disorienting. Most people are afraid to feel the things you first feel when you let go of your most cherished stories and beliefs, so instead of ever truly seeing this process through to an end, they go on placating themselves and others, pretending and constructing another fantasy world through their practice instead of using their practice as a means to tear down the fantasy world. The "spiritual circuit" is full of these types of people, whose desire to escape one thing or another about life is so profound that they check their reason and common sense at the door (and tell themselves that this makes them even more spiritual, because logic and common sense are so materialistic).

Another thing is what we are on an animal level. Human beings have a primal need to develop a social hierarchy, and either submit to a leader or to become a leader. Dominance and submission are still huge parts of our social and sexual dynamics. Power is sexy. Women (and some men) are often turned on by someone they see as powerful, and men (and some women) are often turned on by someone they see as acknowledging and submitting to their power. People don't have to be into S&M for this to play into their sexual psychology. And this goes both ways. Someone in Eido Shimano's position suddenly finds all of these women who treat him like a demigod, and all of these old school dominance and submission dynamics play out. It's really not so surprising to me at all.

What is more surprising, at first glance, is that people on the outside of these sexual cat and mouse games let them go on so long. But it all really boils down to no one wanting to give up their fantasies. The women who submitted to this treatment didn't want to let go of their fantasy of becoming enlightened, Eido didn't want to let go of the male fantasy of total sexual dominance, and the people in the community didn't want to let go of their fantasy of being the students of a "true teacher" or whatnot.

In my opinion, at some point along our spiritual journeys, we have to let go of the fantasy that we will have some spiritual experience that will forever lift us out of the mud of the human realm. I've certainly satisfactorily concluded for myself that kensho or any other experience does not magically "reset" karma or psychological conditioning. I believe from what I've seen in others (I can't say for myself because I haven't had kensho) that it's possible to have a true experience of insight but still remain largely dark to yourself, and caught in self-deception. Experiences are just experiences and they come and go; unless we are in the midst of an experience of total insight right now, whatever true experience we had in the past is just a memory, and memories are largely constructions.

One final thing I've observed, is that for all the virtues that are present to a large extent in members of the Zen community, I'd say courage is not one of the most strongly represented. I feel cynical about all of the Zen teachers who are now "speaking out" about Eido, now that he's already most of the way out and dealt with. It's like a self-congratulation party for having been too cowardly to address the issue when it would have really made a difference. And I'm not trying to be harsh on you, Jundo, I actually respect that you have put yourself out there and spoken out on things you believe in. It's just an overall impression of the larger Zen community that I'm getting.

Something I have found very telling is how Zen teachers have reacted to the exposé of Barry Graham done by his students. Brad Warner, who has so "bravely" (:roll taken on Genpo Merzel, has refused to comment on the Graham situation, even though Brad would do much to set the record straight after recommending Graham as a Zen teacher to readers of his blog a couple of years ago. John Tarrant, when asked about Graham, said, "I know other Zen teachers who are crazier," and had not a single condemnatory thing to say. Graham's students have dug up a wealth of information on his harmful conduct but people who hear or read this information almost universally say it's not their business. No one wants to touch that situation with a ten foot pole, outside of Graham's former students. Even after one of Graham's ex-students who was brave enough to call him out publicly has suffered some backlash, no one wants to step up or step in for him. Even though for Zen teachers to come out and address this situation could help some people right now. Even while everyone is on a tear about this Shimano thing.

Why? In my opinion, it's because Zen teachers, like most of us, are afraid of stirring up a hornet's nest. They're afraid of legal liability and backlash, they're afraid of doing things or making statements that could alienate themselves from the mainstream or get them in trouble. They want to cover their own asses. They don't want to get in the middle of "other people's problems" because then some of the fallout of those problems could fall on them. For all the imagery of Zen being a samurai religion full of hard-asses, I find that most folks in the Zen community are dainty, self-effacing, and avoid conflict. They're not going to go out and poke the bear in the face.

Most of the social and political action I've seen Zen teachers get involved with has been mild and inoffensive. Zen teachers don't even want to take political positions at the risk of alienating students, even when there are a lot of political positions and views out there that are plainly harmful (how can a Zen teacher honestly say he or she is fighting the fight against hunger and poverty, but at the same time refuse to condemn conservative political positions based on denying social programs for the hungry and poor?). Just like Obama, it's like we all want to do something to make the world a better place, but nothing that actually matters that much or could actually change the status quo. Conflict is just too scary and messy. The legacy of the '60s has truly died in the mainstream Zen world.

I personally don't have a lot of expectation when it comes to Zen teachers or other authority figures. I suspect that every Zen teacher that exists has at least one skeleton in his or her closet that would shock his or her students. I do believe that Zen Buddhism taking root in new places has the potential to make those places slightly better, but at the same time I don't believe Zen is going to save the world. I don't think that if everyone in the world sat zazen every day we would live in a Pure Land.

All I expect of a Zen teacher is that he or she has some experience with this practice and this path, and with that experience, can offer some guidance and encouragement, can help point out to me where to look and what to look at when I'm wrestling with certain questions or issues. I don't think there's some special kind of enlightened being that I can get juju from. If I was working with some Zen teacher who told me that I could get enlightened faster by fucking him, I would know what was going on. Just normal human bullshit. That's all. Nothing special.

I am grateful for the extended "dark night of the soul" I went through because I got rid of a lot of illusions, fast. Maybe too fast. I think this is a huge part of the spiritual journey, sorting through our fantasies and wishes and stories, seeing them for what they are, dropping them, letting them go, and then dropping them and letting them go again when they come back up. So the sad thing is that most of us start the spiritual journey naive and idealistic. There's a rainbow up there, man, and there's gold at the end of it. Shangri-la is out there, and when we meet people who seem to be on the same path we believe that these spiritual communities have created some sort of Shangri-la, and if we live in them all the messy parts of the world will stay on the other side of the monastery gate. We think everything has some ultimately cute conclusion, and that all those dark and scary things we hear about or maybe have experienced only happen in dark places, not this light-filled lotus palace where we have sought spiritual refuge. And so on.

But then, one day, our pretty glittery unicorn gores us with its pretty glittery horn, and we have to make sense of it. Most of us don't want to, most of us want to retreat from one failed fantasy into another fantasy. It's not that there is no such thing as Shangri-la, we tell ourselves, it's just that we picked the wrong place. And so we go through the cycle again.

And the only person who can stop that cycle is the person that is keeping it going with his or her thinking. But until we stop playing My Little Pony and pretending that a magic amulet will keep the Big Bad Wolf away, we'll continue to be impaled by the magical unicorn of Reality.

[Byokan]

Wow, 5 years later, still sadly very relevant. I bow to your patience and persistence Jundo

Gassho
raindrop
sat today