Great Awakening - Dropping Body-Mind

[Risho]

Re: Great Awakening - Dropping Body-Mind

One of my central personal koans for a long time has been, "How can realized teachers still be so flawed and have so many problems?" Because I've worked with, had my life touched by, and read transformative teachings from people who I either already knew or later found out had secrets, skeletons, and demons in their closets.

Because realized or not, we're all human.

For me, Zen practice is not at all about becoming a "fitter, happier" me. It's not about becoming a nicer person, or learning how to peel carrots with more focused attention. It's not about acting like people want or expect "good Buddhists" to act. It's about seeing what is true, what is real, to the extent it is possible, no matter what that reality or truth happens to be, pleasant or unpleasant.

I agree with this, but in our practice we should realize that we are all connected and that the way I treat you is the way I treat myself.

I think maybe why the Internet peanut gallery criticizes Treeleaf as having a "faux nicey nice" vibe is maybe that it does sometimes. Maybe we should examine our strong reactions to that accusation? Maybe we should examine why we're practicing and what we're trying to get? Is anyone here willing to be uncomfortable? Or is our effort to make this place as comfortable as possible for everyone like switching the radio dial from Jim Morrison bellowing "WAKE UP!!!" to a nice lullaby?

For the short time I've been on this planet, 34 years, I've realized that life will make sure you're not comfortable even though you try to behave otherwise, and I do fall into that trap a lot.

But I honestly do not care what the internet has to say about this Sangha. We are offered a lot of advice and teachings by people who we do not accept as our teachers. It is our responsibility for the path we take.

I sincerely believe that Chet had a kensho, and that this was a vital and powerful experience.

Should we send him a trophy or plaque? This is sarcasm.. I just couldn't help it. :mrgreen:

Chet is an incredibly flawed human being who doesn't do and isn't capable of a lot of the things "nice" people do.

I don't know Chet. But here's the deal, zen or not. We're all adults here. We should all be able to treat each other with a modicum of respect. To put a concrete example, I wouldn't walk into Shunryu Suzuki's house and call him out in front of the entire Sangha because he didn't have Kensho or wouldn't validate my Kensho. That's not respectful, and if I'm a namby pamby because I believe in treating others with respect, well then that's how it will be.

I don't need a watchdog to save me from false teachings. As I said earlier, I'm a grown up and I'm responsible for the beliefs I have and teachings I follow. Just because someone offers a teaching, doesn't exempt me from responsibility from testing the validity of said teaching in my life. Didn't the Buddha say that?

I think the fact of the inevitable hypocrisy of our teachers ...

Everyone is a hypocrite, every single one of us. We are human, we are flawed. Just because we know better, should never prevent us from teaching others the correct way from our mistakes, or trying better, although we often times fail. We just do, it's a human thing.

When I take Jundo or Taigu to be my teachers, I do so, not with the assumption that Jundo never does stuff he regrets, or never swears when he stubs his toe. I do so because I realize personally, (this is a personal decision that I've made based on my life experience), that the teachings they offer have something to offer me personally. I learn something from it. And I fail. I mean damn, I don't always uphold these teachings, but I strive to. That's why it's called practice after all.

If I waited to find a perfect human being, then I would never find a teacher.

And the same goes the other way. Jundo and Taigu realize that their students won't always practice zazen consistently and make mistakes like I do, but they don't come out and lambast us, and swear at us. They acknowledge the lifestyles of their students and flow with it.

Those are the responsibilities of the teacher and the student. It can't be all give, give, give by the teacher and take, take, take by the student. It must be give and take. If Jundo offers teachings, and I blast back at him, then why should he want to be my teacher? Obviously, I'm telling him (if only by my attitude) that I don't want him as my teacher.

We make a mistake when we judge a person's wisdom on how their particular conditioning manifests in the world.

It's not just realization. It's also actualization of what one has realized in the world... in the marketplace... otherwise this practice is a waste of time.

[Stephanie]

Re: Great Awakening - Dropping Body-Mind

Should we send him a trophy or plaque? This is sarcasm.. I just couldn't help it. :mrgreen:

My point in saying that was that Jundo has come out arguing that kensho experiences are meaningless, especially if the person who had them still has notable personal flaws on display. I disagree based on what I've experienced with Chet--that this flawed person has nonetheless had a clarity and focus on these matters that has helped me see some of the ways I've been asleep and continue to go to sleep. His ability to do that has nothing to do with how nice or pleasant he is to get along with otherwise.

The point isn't really Chet... it's this general argument that realization amounts to how nice or pleasant a person is to get along with. I disagree, and my experience with Chet is my basis for disagreement.

I don't know Chet. But here's the deal, zen or not. We're all adults here. We should all be able to treat each other with a modicum of respect. To put a concrete example, I wouldn't walk into Shunryu Suzuki's house and call him out in front of the entire Sangha because he didn't have Kensho or wouldn't validate my Kensho. That's not respectful, and if I'm a namby pamby because I believe in treating others with respect, well then that's how it will be.

You're using the word "respect" here where I would use "civility." To me, respect is exactly being 100% honest with someone. I don't equate deference with respect. The people I placate aren't people I respect that much. The people I'm honest with are the ones I respect.

I think truth is more important than hurt feelings. And I think the matter of awakening and realization is important enough to hurt feelings over in order to clarify.

I don't need a watchdog to save me from false teachings. As I said earlier, I'm a grown up and I'm responsible for the beliefs I have and teachings I follow. Just because someone offers a teaching, doesn't exempt me from responsibility from testing the validity of said teaching in my life.

Of course. The problem is that we all deceive ourselves so easily. We tend to go more with what is pleasant by default, even if the pleasant things that are said are not true.

Everyone is a hypocrite, every single one of us. We are human, we are flawed. Just because we know better, should never prevent us from teaching others the correct way from our mistakes, or trying better, although we often times fail. We just do, it's a human thing.

I agree completely with this statement.

When I take Jundo or Taigu to be my teachers, I do so, not with the assumption that Jundo never does stuff he regrets, or never swears when he stubs his toe. I do so because I realize personally, (this is a personal decision that I've made based on my life experience), that the teachings they offer have something to offer me personally. I learn something from it. And I fail. I mean damn, I don't always uphold these teachings, but I strive to. That's why it's called practice after all.

I agree completely with this also.

But the irony here is that by saying, "I am here because I believe Jundo and Taigu have something to teach that I want or need to learn, not because they are well behaved," we are contradicting Jundo's assertion that personal manners of speech is the basis of judging another person's realization. If we judge Jundo by the standard he applied to Chet, that harmful and insulting speech is illustrative of a lack of realization and an indication Chet wouldn't know realization if it "bit him on the ass," then we would have to judge Jundo as lacking any sort of realization because of the extremity of his own wrong speech.

But that's just it. I don't judge a teacher by their behavior, niceness, or lack thereof. I judge them by whether their teachings, when tested, are true in my own experience and have an impact on my experience. The way Jundo and Taigu present the Soto path is in accord with my recent experiences on the path, and continues to help me let go of the delusions that block me from being with things as they are, so I trust and continue to learn from them as teachers. I could find out that they each have 20 girlfriends and owe millions to bookies and steal ice cream from children and it wouldn't make a bit of difference. Because I've learned that someone can talk it who may not be walking it 24/7 themselves. And that maybe what I judge as "walking it" really isn't because I'm judging based on my own limited view. The only test or criteria worth examining, as far as I'm concerned, is, "Do these teachings function in my life?"

And the same goes the other way. Jundo and Taigu realize that their students won't always practice zazen consistently and make mistakes like I do, but they don't come out and lambast us, and swear at us. They acknowledge the lifestyles of their students and flow with it.

Maybe lambasting students from time to time wouldn't be such a bad thing. A lot of people would leave, but IMO those people weren't that serious about it in the first place. Most "in person" centers where I've practiced have had teachers who aren't afraid to call students out on their b.s. It's like Joko Beck said... a teacher's job isn't to keep you comfortable, it's the opposite. To shake up your self-centered view system.

Those are the responsibilities of the teacher and the student. It can't be all give, give, give by the teacher and take, take, take by the student. It must be give and take. If Jundo offers teachings, and I blast back at him, then why should he want to be my teacher? Obviously, I'm telling him (if only by my attitude) that I don't want him as my teacher.

Not necessarily. I build trust with people through conflict and conflict resolution. And in the arena of Zen practice... students have long challenged teachers. Maybe there should be some sort of protocol around it--I'm not justifying Chet's behavior, but I don't think that challenging a teacher is an indication that a student doesn't want to learn. It often is quite the opposite, as if a student is saying, "I don't quite trust you, show me that I can trust you by meeting my challenge." Many of the greatest Zen stories and koans have come out of students challenging a teacher or one another, and being bested by the teacher or fellow student, whose response shows his/her deeper realization.

It's not just realization. It's also actualization of what one has realized in the world... in the marketplace... otherwise this practice is a waste of time.

Well, having a moment of seeing is definitely not the whole shebang. The whole system of Zen practice as it has developed over the years is put in place to help mature, integrate, and actualize a student's realization. For most people in the historic Zen records, the training began with a realization, not ended with one.

The problem is when you are trying to get a student to actualize a realization that hasn't happened yet. Then it becomes parroting. If someone hasn't seen clearly this great matter, they might be able to parrot and act and put on a show on how they think they are supposed to act. That is neither realization nor actualization.

And this practice is a waste of time, as far as the "self" is concerned. As long as you think you're going to get something out of it, your practice is operating out of a distortion. Which I think is probably true for most of us most of the time... that we still have our "secret practices" of wanting to become better, kinder, etc.

[Adam]

Re: Great Awakening - Dropping Body-Mind

My point in saying that was that Jundo has come out arguing that kensho experiences are meaningless

Just a quick question. Why all the fuss about Kensho? I'm being serious...does it really matter if one experiences Kensho, or not?

Gassho,

Adam

[Stephanie]

Re: Great Awakening - Dropping Body-Mind

My point in saying that was that Jundo has come out arguing that kensho experiences are meaningless

Just a quick question. Why all the fuss about Kensho? I'm being serious...does it really matter if one experiences Kensho, or not?

Gassho,

Adam

That's a good question that I can't answer.

As far as I'm concerned, the jury is out when it comes to "kensho" as a sudden, singular awakening experience, in terms of whether awakening has to come in this form or whether it can come gradually. I know I have not had such a singular experience because doubts remain. But I do know that over time, I've seen through delusions and have a much clearer sense of this path and this practice now than I did when I first started. I still labor under "happily ever after" delusions about my personal life but I have a lot fewer delusions about practice and know it will not get me any of this stuff I want.

Even with my limited understanding, I know that awakening is important and that it is not the same as having greater acceptance or a nicer manner. It is a very private matter and it has to do with what one experiences when one's nose is to the grindstone. Are you clear on this great matter of life and death? Or are you still haunted by a sense that something is missing? Are you still trying to get something or get somewhere? Have you really seen that perfection is beyond conditions, that the content of your thoughts and of your life is ultimately irrelevant, or are you comfortable only when things are a certain way?

IME, awakening is seeing how much of what we think matters so much really doesn't matter at all. As long as we are practicing in a way that we think "matters" in some sense of who we can become or what the world can be like, we are still stuck in ideas. Others would argue... and they should... I am not the teacher here. I can only speak from my own personal experience. And my experience is that it is possible to wake up and that it has nothing to do with changing any worldly conditions--either inside or outside of yourself--whatsoever.

[Rich]

Re: Great Awakening - Dropping Body-Mind

My point in saying that was that Jundo has come out arguing that kensho experiences are meaningless

Just a quick question. Why all the fuss about Kensho? I'm being serious...does it really matter if one experiences Kensho, or not?

Gassho,

Adam

I dont think it matters very much but if I did experience kensho I wouldnt make it into something special but would view it as an opportunity to strenghten my practice.


I think awakening is something we do over and over again

Even with my limited understanding, I know that awakening is important and that it is not the same as having greater acceptance or a nicer manner. It is a very private matter and it has to do with what one experiences when one's nose is to the grindstone. Are you clear on this great matter of life and death? Or are you still haunted by a sense that something is missing? Are you still trying to get something or get somewhere? Have you really seen that perfection is beyond conditions, that the content of your thoughts and of your life is ultimately irrelevant, or are you comfortable only when things are a certain way?

IME, awakening is seeing how much of what we think matters so much really doesn't matter at all. As long as we are practicing in a way that we think "matters" in some sense of who we can become or what the world can be like, we are still stuck in ideas. Others would argue... and they should... I am not the teacher here. I can only speak from my own personal experience. And my experience is that it is possible to wake up and that it has nothing to do with changing any worldly conditions--either inside or outside of yourself--whatsoever.

Are you clear on this great matter of life and death? --- If Im not thinking about it then its clear
Are you still trying to get something or get somewhere? --- Most of the time
Have you really seen that perfection is beyond conditions, that the content of your thoughts and of your life is ultimately irrelevant, or are you comfortable only when things are a certain way? --- I can accept things as they are but often things turn out the way I thought they would.
And my experience is that it is possible to wake up and that it has nothing to do with changing any worldly conditions--either inside or outside of yourself--whatsoever.--- You are right, I have no idea what this is.

/Rich

[ghop]

Re: Great Awakening - Dropping Body-Mind

I know I come off a little crazy at times.
One week I'm confused about Christian beliefs,
the next week I think I'm Bodhidharma reincarnated... :shock:
but...
isn't kensho just a word?
isn't kensho just a concept?
isn't the point of Zen the dropping of all concepts?
doesn't it really come down to how you drive your car in traffic,
how you wash your dishes, mow the lawn, pay your taxes, love
your spouse, etc...?
if it is anything other that what is going on right now it ain't Reality...
and if it ain't Reality, then what is it?
POOF :!:

If I'm learning anything at all from sittin on my good ol zafu
it's this...
DON'T SEEK ANY EXPERIENCE OTHER THAN THE ONE YOU ARE HAVING RIGHT NOW.
be happy with THIS (even if you ain't happy with it)
now that's enlightenment!

just my 2 cents

gassho
Greg

[Janne H]

Re: Great Awakening - Dropping Body-Mind

Hi, Stephanie.

Maybe this should be in the other thread about morality,

As I do my practice, I am more often able to be less attached (hoked, overcome) to/by anger, hatred and other feelings of not getting something I want, negative thoughts or whatever. Clearly this results in less anger, hatred and so on as I am not feeding, holding on to them as tightly. Doesn´t that make me a "nicer" (a word of your choice, maybe not a the better choice, but it will do) and a happier person, more at peace?

[Shutoku]

Re: Great Awakening - Dropping Body-Mind

I am new here, though aware of the Chet controversy. It isn't my place to discuss that end of things, so I won't.

As far as Kensho, I think the problem is simply that if there is much talk of it, people, especially people largely practicing on their own, might end up worrying that they haven't had one, and begin sitting with some expectation that they better get one of them there Kenshos...and then are not "just sitting", but their sitting now becomes just another activity of craving, and striving to attain something.

At least that is my noob feeling on it ops:

Daniel

[Jundo]

Re: Great Awakening - Dropping Body-Mind

Do not think that one is only doing this practice "right" when feeling like a clear and polished mirror, pulling weeds in contentment with undisturbed mind. Instead, find the undisturbed mind that is always present ... even as the mind thinks "man, it is hot and there are so many damn weeds". The mirror is always there, so let it just reflect that too.

Perhaps that even with our negative emotions there is at the core, or at some deep level, clarity and peace?

Gassho,
Jisen/BrianW

Oh, this is another example of seeing/tasting things from many views and tastes at once, sometimes seemingly contradictory views and tastes. Resistance and total peace at once, "attractions and aversions, likes and dislikes" while simultaneously dropping to the marrow all "attractions and aversions, likes and dislikes" ... as discussed on that other thread ...

viewtopic.php?p=38871#p38871

Now, sometimes we are through and through at home and 'one' with the rain pouring down on our picnic, the cancer diagnosis, the flat tire while late for work, the war in the news. No resistance at all, embracing all, undivided from any of it. That is enlightenment, just the mirror.

And, sometimes we are at home and 'one' with the rain, cancer, flat, war etc. even when a little sad, afraid or ticked off by each ... thus totally at home and 'one' with conditions including the human states of being "a little sad, afraid or ticked off". That is enlightenment too ... no resistance even amid resistance, embracing while pushing away, undivided amid this world of division ... ultimately nothing to resist, embrace or push, run toward or away from, divide or not divide (now THAT is Wholeness!) ... the dust seen as precisely the mirror, and the mirror the dust.

We can fix the flat, fight to stop the war or take our chemotherapy ... even as we allow each "just as it is".

The thing to avoid is to have the mirror so covered with dust of delusion that the mirror is lost to view ... only aversion, pushing away or running toward, only division. That is delusion.

Of course, ultimately, there is no mirror and no place for the dust to alight.

Gassho, J

[Jundo]

Re: Great Awakening - Dropping Body-Mind

For me, Zen practice is not at all about becoming a "fitter, happier" me. It's not about becoming a nicer person, or learning how to peel carrots with more focused attention. It's not about acting like people want or expect "good Buddhists" to act. It's about seeing what is true, what is real, to the extent it is possible, no matter what that reality or truth happens to be, pleasant or unpleasant.

In my experience, Zen practice--zazen--is the only way to do this. Because I've learned, through personal experience, that truth and reality are not thoughts and cannot be known with or through thoughts. But most of our "understanding" is thought based, to the extent we don't even see that it is.

Dear Stephanie,

I feel that your writings and posts about freedom from thoughts and mental baggage are becoming longer and longer ... more filled with thousands of thoughts and tangled mental stuff. You are a little lost again in complexities and problems of your own creation, I feel.

Simplify! Some "Truths" are found in the simplest Simplicities.

This practice will make us "fitter and happier" ... although a rather ironic and profound "Happiness" that is "happy" with sometimes being sad and sometimes being happy and sometimes whatever life is, embracing all. It is a Happiness not dependent on being la la happy all the time, at one with both smiles and tears (thus, a profound Happiness).

I stand by my characterization that it is human to stub our toes and mumble "shit" without much worry about falling into Karmic hells, thus cutting our 'self' some slack. However, someone who is every day exhibiting a failure to be at one with this life, resistant to this life-self-world ... caught in tangled emotions and ego ... has not had a "Kensho" or any other realization about the nature of life-self-world worth very much. They do not see what is "real and true", for they are lost in their own mind. They would not know "Kensho" if it "bit them on the ass".

One of my central personal koans for a long time has been, "How can realized teachers still be so flawed and have so many problems?"

NO truly "realized" teacher will be "so flawed and have so many problems". That is someone with a robe, and perhaps some insight in some things ... but not someone who truly is realized. One cannot be a "truly realized teacher" if a child molester, wife abuser, starter of bar fights, active cocaine user, or sexual predator on students, for example (as sometimes found in the clergy). One, however, can be a truly "realized teacher" ... and, in fact, a better teacher for being human ... for sometimes yelling "shit" when stubbing one's toes on a chair leg, being afraid when getting a cancer diagnosis, overcoming an addiction, grieving when one's wife dies or who sometimes gets "hot under the collar" and "loses his cool" on a hot day.

Know the difference! It is an important difference, and no mere excuse for someone's behavior. One is human flesh and blood wrestling and overcoming human weakness ... one is humanity at its worst or succumbing to human weakness.

One is a human being/buddha who sometimes falls into deluded behavior. One is lost in delusion.

Thus, we do not, as you say, "make a mistake when we judge a person's wisdom on how their particular conditioning manifests in the world."

You also said, " ... Jundo has come out arguing that kensho experiences are meaningless, especially if the person who had them still has notable personal flaws on display." ...

I never said the former ... that Kensho is meaningless ..., only that we should not put too much weight on passing insights. I did say the latter, to wit, there is a vital difference between someone with insight who in some moments or passing instances acts reeking of delusion, and someone who is just deluded in much of their life.

I started out this practice path a lot "nicer" than I am now. More "self-sacrificing."

Human beings, being human, may not always act "nice". However, people progressing on this path will tend to be "nicer, more peaceful" people because the war with the "self-world-life" is over. They realize that to be filled with anger and nastiness is not the way.

Charlotte Joko Beck and Toni Packer, and both are very clear that true practice requires going through an uncomfortable process of seeing the futility of the way we normally approach life. We have to see how self-centered we are, how we are trying to work every situation to our advantage, how we are trying to get peacefulness or happiness or love or security for ourselves and how futile this ultimately is. This isn't some trick where we say, "Oh, it's futile," and then by saying that get what we want. We never get what we want.

Yes, Joko and Toni would probably tell you now, as I tell you, that Stephanie must see the futility in how she normally approaches life. It is NOT, however, that Joko and Toni are saying that there is no "peace, happiness, love and security" in this life.

Joko and Toni would not be Buddhist teachers if preaching that (and whether or not they would call themselves so).

It is that Joko and Toni believe that the way we go hunting for "peace, happiness, love and security" is all wrong ... and that we must find by giving up the chase for these things ... and that the ultimate "Peace, Happiness, Love and Security" sweeps in and fully holds "peace/war, happiness/sadness, love/hate/neutrality, security and insecurity".

Joko and Toni are Buddhist teachers for preaching that.

As you rightly quote Toni ...

Toni Packer says, "Rather than trying to seek solutions, overcome the self, or be of genuine service to the world, can we as human beings, caught in the midst of endless confrontation and fighting or weary acceptance of things, begin with a completely different approach: listening quietly and feeling inwardly all that's going on in and around us, without either acceptance or rejection?"[EMPHASIS ADDED]

I am sorry, Stephanie, but I think you must "begin with a very different approach" on this. You are chasing your own tail.

Gassho, Jundo

[Saijun]

Re: Great Awakening - Dropping Body-Mind

Now, sometimes we are through and through at home and 'one' with the rain pouring down on our picnic, the cancer diagnosis, the flat tire while late for work, the war in the news. No resistance at all, embracing all, undivided from any of it. That is enlightenment, just the mirror.

And, sometimes we are at home and 'one' with the rain, cancer, flat, war etc. even when a little sad, afraid or ticked off by each ... thus totally at home and 'one' with conditions including the human states of being "a little sad, afraid or ticked off". That is enlightenment too ... no resistance even amid resistance, embracing while pushing away, undivided amid this world of division ... ultimately nothing to resist, embrace or push, run toward or away from, divide or not divide (now THAT is Wholeness!) ... the dust seen as precisely the mirror, and the mirror the dust.

We can fix the flat, fight to stop the war or take our chemotherapy ... even as we allow each "just as it is".

The thing to avoid is to have the mirror so covered with dust of delusion that the mirror is lost to view ... only aversion, pushing away or running toward, only division. That is delusion.

Of course, ultimately, there is no mirror and no place for the dust to alight.

Gassho, J

Good evening, friends,

This reminded me of Kyuzo Mifune expounding on the philosophical side of Judo; know fully, understand fully, accept fully--even as your hips are turning to throw your uke, you become the throw, the uke, the mat, yourself. The whole universe and the three times are transcended in one motion. The power to change things (i.e., throw one's uke) comes not from fighting any conditions or opponents. Power comes from allowing all things to be just as they are, including (and this is what holds me up) the act of changing.

I apologize for the nonsequeter. Please ignore my ignorant comments and continue with this wonderful exposition and discussion of Dharma.

Metta,

Perry

[BrianW]

Re: Great Awakening - Dropping Body-Mind

Oh, this is another example of seeing/tasting things from many views and tastes at once, sometimes seemingly contradictory views and tastes. Resistance and total peace at once, "attractions and aversions, likes and dislikes" while simultaneously dropping to the marrow all "attractions and aversions, likes and dislikes"

I think I am getting a little bit of a feel for experiencing reality from multiple perspectives....I will be posting an experience I recently had relating to time, which is related to a thread a while back on Being-time. Certain aspects of Zen seem to have a slight flavor of postmodernism...amazing so much of it was written so long ago. For example, Dogen's thought seems so contemporary at times, it shocks me to think he was writing in the 13th century!

Most folks do not know what is this "dropping of body and mind" They feel that it must be the attaining of some state of disembodied consciousness. (In fact, there are forms of meditation which attain such disembodied states, but Shikantaza is not so).

To "drop away body and mind" is to simply and thoroughly drop the mind-body's demands/wishes/aversions-attractions/hard categorizing between the self and all that body-mind consider 'not the self'. Thereby, the "self" is put out of a job ... the hard walls between self and other soften or fall ... body and mind thus dropped away as the resistance and separation to "other" is dropped away ... thus "self" vs. "other" is dropped away ... thus "self" and "other" dropped away.

Good to clarify this point as I know Dogen's phrase "drop away body and mind", for me anyway, is a bit confusing.....Easy to misconstrue this as some sort of disembodied consciousness, which of course is not the point.


Gassho,
Jisen/BrianW

[AlanLa]

Re: Great Awakening - Dropping Body-Mind

Wow, so busy here. Ok, here goes...

As for kensho, let's say I am in zazen and I have this unique experience. I go, "wow, what was that?" and ask someone that might know. This authoritative person says something along the lines of, "Oh, that was kensho. No big deal. Just keep sitting." Then, some time down the road I meet another authoritative person and I tell him about my kensho, and he says, "Hmm, I don't think you really had a kensho. Nope, but that's ok, just keep sitting." Who of the three of us is correct? The one who didn't know in the first place, or the two he tells that disagree? Does it matter? To whom does it matter? Why bother with all these questions when everyone seems to agree that "just keep sitting" is the way to go?

Stephanie, you are on an interesting journey. Thank you for sharing. Let me try to very briefly summarize it. You used to be nice to people for the "wrong" reasons, then you discovered there was no "self" and so now are not so nice to people for the "right" reasons. Maybe, just maybe, because I truly don't know, but it seems you are clinging really hard to this "no self" idea. You had a whole thread on it that I poked around in taking the other side, which you refudiated :mrgreen: each time. Might it be possible that by letting go of this "no self" idea and accepting more there is a "self" idea, finding a balance between the two, that you would act nice toward people for the "right" reasons? Maybe, just maybe, because I truly don't know, this is your journey into morality and wisdom.

Lastly, an analogy. Let's just say that I am a professor that teaches at a university. I have attained all the realizations and "buddha" seals required by my profession (Ph.D. and tenure), so my job is secure. I've been in the profession a long time, grown up in it for years, matured in it in wisdom, and when I teach I teach the highest ideals of my profession. For the sake of the story, let's call those ideals "morality." My students respect me, try to emulate me, and I treat them well to the very best of my ability in all of my professional endeavors, and even out of class when those occasions arise. However, I have some old friends I went to college with that I just love, that I truly and deeply feel a bond with, and these guys are also college professors in the same subject I teach, but I don't approve of their behavior. They do not emulate the ideals and morality that I now do; they do not behave the way I feel is proper. But I love these guys and have a great weakness for them. Periodically I call them up, get together with them, and when I do they end up goading me into behaving like they do. I know it's my fault in many ways. I know I should leave them behind, but I love them. I know I should not let myself be goaded by them, but I love them to the point that maybe I hate them. And every time I act badly with them I feel terrible about it, even hating myself a bit about it. But these actions with my old cronies do not in any way truly reflect how I feel about or how I practice my profession. I always try to maintain that professionalism with my students in class and out. So one day one of my students sees me out with my old buddies doing some terrible things, things I have told this student to never do, things I don't really believe in but because of my weakness for these guys I end up doing. That student's faith is shaken, understandably so. That student confronts me about it, rightfully so. I apologize, admit my fault, try to explain as best I can that which I can't really explain. Still my student is unsure of what morality is in the face of this contradiction. Finally, I ask my student this question: Do those bad actions that you saw then, and these actions of confession and contrition you see now, fit into all the aspects of my teaching over all the time I have known you? If the students says "no," he is free to go, and I let him go freely. If he says "yes," he is free to stay, and I welcome him back freely. If he says "I don't know," then we hug and struggle together until we each figure it out.

[Stephanie]

Re: Great Awakening - Dropping Body-Mind

I enjoyed your response, Alan.

As for kensho, let's say I am in zazen and I have this unique experience. I go, "wow, what was that?" and ask someone that might know. This authoritative person says something along the lines of, "Oh, that was kensho. No big deal. Just keep sitting." Then, some time down the road I meet another authoritative person and I tell him about my kensho, and he says, "Hmm, I don't think you really had a kensho. Nope, but that's ok, just keep sitting." Who of the three of us is correct? The one who didn't know in the first place, or the two he tells that disagree? Does it matter? To whom does it matter? Why bother with all these questions when everyone seems to agree that "just keep sitting" is the way to go?

Hmm, I think bringing "kensho" into it has thrown off what I wanted to emphasize... I would argue, from what I've learned and seen from friends and past teachers, kensho can function as a "power generator" of practice and insight, though certainly not a cure-all (not that any of these folks I've encountered have argued that). And I'm a bit leery of Jundo's dismissive attitude about it. But "kensho" in particular is not really my personal concern, which is a more generic interest in "awakening" and what that means to people here. What does it mean to wake up?

Some folks seem to define awakening as mere presence, that to be fully present to the moment is to be awake in that moment. In my experience, there is something deeper than merely having an undistracted moment... a recognition, a seeing, that has the power to completely dissolve a story or delusion that had completely taken over. This happens to me sometimes... a deep knowing, this is not true or this is not how it is. I've also had moments of being completely absorbed in the activity of the moment... concentration experiences when I used to do shamatha meditation... and as powerful as those were, they brought no lasting clarity or insight to illumine the delusional thought process that inevitably restarted once the concentration faded.

While what degree of seeing I have had is small, nothing major or total, it is enough to understand the arc of the Buddha's story in which he mastered all the different states of meditation and still found his questions were not resolved. Not until he had the experience of seeing deeply and clearly, an experience of awakening, that forever altered his experience of life and removed his doubt and searching. It didn't chase away Mara for good... but the Buddha had resolved his question.

Stephanie, you are on an interesting journey. Thank you for sharing. Let me try to very briefly summarize it. You used to be nice to people for the "wrong" reasons, then you discovered there was no "self" and so now are not so nice to people for the "right" reasons. Maybe, just maybe, because I truly don't know, but it seems you are clinging really hard to this "no self" idea. You had a whole thread on it that I poked around in taking the other side, which you refudiated :mrgreen: each time. Might it be possible that by letting go of this "no self" idea and accepting more there is a "self" idea, finding a balance between the two, that you would act nice toward people for the "right" reasons? Maybe, just maybe, because I truly don't know, this is your journey into morality and wisdom.

Don't get me wrong... By challenging moral behavior as the sole mark and standard by which we judge wisdom, I'm not saying that morality is not an important part of Buddhist practice. And I've by no stretch of the imagination become a "mean" person. I do my best to practice patience and kindness every day. My work requires me to have the "caring faucet" turned on and to be able to be present and listen to others in pain no matter how exhausted or irritable I might be. And, though imperfect, I manage pretty well. The difference now with how I was some years ago is not that I'm no longer kind, but that I'm less concerned over whether others think I'm "nice" or "good enough." If a person who is a user and manipulator accuses me of not going far enough for them, I'm no longer troubled by this; I see what's going on. It doesn't mean that I'm not still kind to such people, I just have better boundaries.

I also think that true kindness and compassion are very different beasts from conventional notions of "niceness." I have a friend who almost always starts out telling me about some asshole guy she's with by saying, "He's really nice." I know that word is meaningless in general and especially meaningless when she uses it. Being "nice" is just knowing how to act to gain social acceptance. Often, the "nice" people are the ones who fail to step to the plate when real courage or heroism is necessary, or even the simple courage of being honest and emotionally open in a relationship.

Lastly, an analogy.

The analogy is well made but speaks little to me, as I think anyone who had the job of "moral professor" would ultimately have to be a hypocrite, and the wise student would do well to question such a person.

I spent many years looking for perfection and believing that Buddhist masters and teachers were more perfect people, the kind of people I wanted to emulate. My experience, however, was seeing that these people had just as many personal flaws as any average person, and the only thing that kept the whole dog and pony show of "perfect masters" going was people's desperate desire to believe in such, and to ignore anything that challenged their beliefs.

What I've learned has been far more freeing... that this practice isn't about ascending to a perfect realm, but seeing Reality exactly as it is. I don't consider Zen teachers to be holy people with stainless morality, but teachers of a Way of awakening. I know whether to trust a teacher by what happens when I put what they teach into practice. Teachers' bad behavior does not create any sort of "crisis of doubt" in me for that reason.

Again, as I have put it before... what I've seen is that we are conditioned beings, and our conditioning is what blocks us from seeing things as they truly are. But the paradox is, while we can see through the conditioning and not be so ruled by it, it does not go away altogether. Which is why Zen realization does not work as a cure-all therapy that eradicates all personal issues. We don't have the option of erasing and reformatting our mental hard drives. So a teacher who still falls victim to his or her conditioning is merely expressing the ultimate inescapability of the human condition, as far as I understand it. We can see it for what it is, and not be as immediately responsive to our programming, but that programming is still there.

[Jundo]

Re: Great Awakening - Dropping Body-Mind

Hmm, I think bringing "kensho" into it has thrown off what I wanted to emphasize... I would argue, from what I've learned and seen from friends and past teachers, kensho can function as a "power generator" of practice and insight, though certainly not a cure-all (not that any of these folks I've encountered have argued that). And I'm a bit leery of Jundo's dismissive attitude about it.

I think that any kind of coach or teacher must have to repeat some things again and again before people start to hear ... Fortunately, patience is at the heart of this practice. So, let me say again:

I do not have a "dismissive attitude" toward "Kensho".

What I "dismiss" are fanciful images of "Kensho" by those who have never tasted that, yet are so ready to lecture on the subject. I am also rather dismissive of those who claim "Kensho" without manifesting in their life much of the insight they claim (yes, true mastery of this practice will show itself in how the person behaves over the long haul of life ... a Karate master may sometimes or quite frequently miss a kick or flub a punch but, overall, will not do so in most key matches on most days). I dismiss those, as you do, who claim a powerful "Kensho" and think that practice ends there ... for it is only a vista on a long, lifetime hike. I am also dismissive, as you are, of those who claim "Kensho" as more than it is ... as the "resolver of all problems and mysteries of every kind" (although it --is-- the complete resolver of all problems and mysteries of every kind, although just not in the way that most folks think it is).

In Soto Zen, "Kensho" is vitally important and sacred, the source of insight. However, all of the journey is also tasted as vital and sacred, the source of insight. We do not "lower Kensho", but simply raise up everything else. We simply do not run toward Kensho .... but neither do we run away.

We also see insight, Wisdom and Compassion, as able to creep into our marrow's marrow over time ... and, thus, a "one off" Kensho is not strictly necessary.

Stephanie, I am also rather hesitant about how you describe your view of what you imagine "awakening" awakens. I agree that it is not "mere presence, being in the moment" as so often misunderstood (i.e., just doing one action at one time, without resistance and totally focused thereon). However, be careful if you define "awakening" as some sudden "seeing reality as it is". That may also be a misleading way to describe "awakening". Rather, I would point you towards "Great Awakening" as "experiencing and merging into reality as it is" ... allowing and dropping all separation from reality as it is. Do you pierce the subtle difference? It is not necessarily "being in the moment" ... nor "fully comprehending the right answer to every question and decision in any moment" ... but, rather, it is "being at peace and 'of one piece' with each moment, whatever that moment should contain up or down". (The latter is subtly different from the former two).

We had a series on whether this practice answers all questions about "the meaning of life" .... and the basic conclusion of that is that, yes, it does answer some very important ones, answers others by allowing us to drop the questions as unimportant ... and does not address still others which were not the Buddha's concern in his quest for the cure to "Life is Dukkha".

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"Does Satori provide the answer to the ‘big questions’?"

You mention, as examples of some big questions, "what happens when we die", "whether there is a God and a 'Divine Plan'", "Why were we born, for what purpose" and the like. I will try to look at each of these in the coming days, one by one.

For now, I just want to address your main question: "Does Satori provide the answer to the ‘big questions’?"

Our Practice provides some very specific (and wonderful) answers to some 'big questions'. For example, Buddhism provides very clear guidance for and understanding of the origins of human suffering in this life. The "Four Noble Truths". for example, provide a formula that effectively describes the sickness and provides the medicine for its treatment or cure. (More about that here: http://treeleafzen.blogspot.com/2008...a-xx-four.html).

Our Practice provides some very wonderful answers to other 'big questions' by instructing us to drop the questions as meaningless. Some questions are as pointless as our asking 'how many angels can gather on the head of a pin' or 'what color are the rabbits that live on the moon'. An example of such a question may be "where do we 'go' when we die, and where did we 'come from' before we were born" (I will talk about that in another posting later this week).

Hand in hand with the above, many questions we regularly ask may just be phrased poorly, biased by our narrow, anthropocentric human understanding. An example of that may be "why do 'bad things' happen in the world". When we change the way the question is asked, answers begin to present themselves (I will talk about that too in the coming days). Hitting the "reset button' on so many of our misguided questions are what most of those old Koans are on about, by the way.

And sometimes, Buddhism provides no answer to some 'big questions' (although that may be a kind of 'answer' too!).

Folks talk of "awakening" without much "awakening" ... mistaking some glimpses and a bit of insight for "awakening" ... thinking they nonetheless understand what "awakening" must be.

Gassho, Jundo