Special reading - once born twice born zen (part not 2)

[Shohei]

Re: 0613 - SPECIAL READING - (MORE) ONCE BORN TWICE BORN ZEN

No really important comment on the reading. I thought when i read it it sounded slanted to wards soto versus rinzai mostly, perhaps, i thought, it was my own likes/dislikes that amplified such a view. Im down with gentler means i think and even though i have no personal experience make a call that i "like" soto over rinzai... how fair is that? Something to think about i guess. No right or wrong way, Harder or Softer way, in the end it may be harder in my perspective, but just right for another. We all find our own path - and make of it what we can... and then see were standing in the middle of wide open field with with everyone else :P

Jundo Thank you for your last post here a wonderful idea!! Should do that sort of thing today! (well as soon as possible!)

Gassho Shohei

[Dosho]

Re: 0613 - SPECIAL READING - (MORE) ONCE BORN TWICE BORN ZEN

You are quite right about what an outside perspective can offer and his background is interesting. My father taught religion for about 30 years at a community college and in high school planned to be a methodist minister. He has always had a negative view of zen, although I've never been able to get him to say why. He is a Toni Packer fan though...can't get him to explain that one either as he keeps his views close to the vest. The ultimate challenge will be finding out what he thinks of me practicing zen...I'm not thinking that's likely. :?

You'd be surprised (or maybe not) at the 'meeting of the heart&mind' that can occur on such matter between parents and children as the years pass (not always ... but very often). If dad is a Toni Packer 'fan', then he is a Zen 'fan' in some way deep down (Toni Packer is still a Zen teacher, whatever she labels it) ... and if he had a religious calling deep down, and taught religion for 30 years, I would bet that the common ground is not too far below the surface ... even if he wishes perhaps you had kept to the family religion.

My mother, later in life, was very open to the road I choose (my father years before). During the first few years, she had been concerned that "Zen" meant I would be hanging around airports in a bedsheet selling George Harrison CDs. When she had cancer, I even had her Zazening , and in the end, she asked me to perform a "Buddhist Jewish Whatever' funeral as clergy ... which I did.

By the way ... here is something I did with mom before she passed that I recommend to a lot of folks: I got a video camera and conducted about 4 or 5 hours of "interviews" (in the style of the American CNN show "Larry King" or the like), just asking mom questions and letting her respond. At first, we both thought that she would have nothing to say. But ya know, sometimes when people get talking about their lives ... well, 4 or 5 hours was no problem! Questions were very simple ... such as ....

- What was your toughest moment in life?

- What is your greatest memory in life?

- What is your advice for overcoming the tough times?

- What would you like to pass on to your grandchildren as a lesson in life?

- What is your view on God?

- Where do you think the world is going?

- How has the world changed over your lifetime, since you were a kid?

- Tell me about your parents.

- What would you change if you had to do it over again?

- What would you not change if you had to do it over again?

etc. etc. It is pretty easy to make a list. It was a real learning experience as we were doing it (I even found out a few stories and amazing facts about our family and her that I did not know ... and I thought I knew everything!). Now that she has passed, it is nice to have to give our kids too.

Gassho, Jundo

These are indeed some very good questions and food for thought (or non-thought) on the subject as a whole. I may have given the impression I don't talk much with my Dad...quite the reverse. In fact the topics I mentioned are about the only thing we don't talk about freely and that's why it puzzles me. I grew up without any religion since he walked away from his in high school, but it was often a topic of discussion in our household. He has always danced around the idea of referring to himself as a buddhist, but never did other than once when he had surgery and they asked for a selection of clergy (and as it turned out they got it wrong when he noticed afterwards that his hospital band said "Jewish"). In fact, the emotional life I have comes almost exclusively from my father...my mother is the one who rarely shares emotion or history. I think for my Dad, being a true buddhist would tend to make him consider some things I don't think he wants to face. I will say that much of the last year as I have begun to practice has been very helpful in my relationship with my mother, at least in the respect that I don't get as angry as I did before. That was only causing me pain. Perhaps what you describe above is a good goal of my goalessness and a step towards healing.

[BrianW]

Re: 0613 - SPECIAL READING - (MORE) ONCE BORN TWICE BORN ZEN

I found it interesting that the testimonial by the Soto practitioner at the end of the chapter really didn’t provide much in the way of a description in of the characteristics of his “climax” or “insight.” It reminded me of something I heard in a Norm Fisher podcast. He was discussing the nature of religious experience in various traditions and noted, somewhat in jest, that the Soto religious experience tends to be “somewhat fuzzy.”

Gassho,
BrianW

[Jundo]

Re: 0613 - SPECIAL READING - (MORE) ONCE BORN TWICE BORN ZEN

He was discussing the nature of religious experience in various traditions and noted, somewhat in jest, that the Soto religious experience tends to be “somewhat fuzzy.”

Warm and fuzzy?

A stillness ... a subtle and clear taste ... how natural it all seems ...

The 'Soto" fellow in the book did say in the very last line ...

the flower unfolds to the light

[BrianW]

Re: 0613 - SPECIAL READING - (MORE) ONCE BORN TWICE BORN ZEN

Warm and fuzzy?

I sure feel somewhat fuzzy in my thinking much of the time

The 'Soto" fellow in the book did say in the very last line ...

the flower unfolds to the light

Yes exactly…I can see how within the Soto tradition, poetic language seems best at expressing our experience. Dogen’s poetic language and, many times, contradictory statements really seem right on the mark. A more linear analysis often does not seem adequate. For example, the author’s discussion of emptiness and oneness in “Eight Types of Enlightenment”, while providing some useful information, seems to me to fall a bit short.

Gassho,
BrianW

[Byokan]

From the text:

It should be acknowledged, however, that if Rinzai meditation has it’s pitfalls, so does Soto. Rinzai tends to turn Zen practice into a means to an end, to be interminably goal-oriented. And the end that is emphasized (satori) may be the ecstasy involved in the experience rather than the insight (kensho) which issues from the experience. Soto, on the other hand, may play only in the shallow waters of mental control (joriki) instead of moving more deeply and fully into a realization and expression of one’s Buddha nature. Instead of living more and more out of the immediacy of original enlightenment and allowing that to pervade more and more of one’s life, one may be satisfied to merely enjoy the momentary therapeutic benefits of “sitting quietly, doing nothing,” and to use faith in one’s original nature to rationalize the status quo. Rather than being the highest level of Zen practice (saijojo), the practice of Buddhas, Soto is in danger of reducing itself to the lowest level, bompu zen. If Rinzai can become artificial in it’s method, Soto can become superficial in it’s realization.

Ahh, the momentary therapeutic benefits of sitting quietly, doing nothing. So easy, so relaxing! Ok, the author is doing his best to describe the practices as a scholar, not as one who does the practice. So I’ll give him some slack. His description of the difference between the log jam and the muddly pond is quite good. However, I think there is little danger that any enlightened being would use his enlightenment to “rationalize the status quo”. I think here he is indulging the popular misconception of Buddhists as blissed-out slackers. Lucky for us, I think Jundo and Taigu do emphasize “living more and more out of the immediacy of original enlightenment and allowing that to pervade more and more of one’s life.” If nothing else, this reading has made me more sure than ever that the muddly pond is the place for me.

Like a duck bobbing naturally in water

Gassho
Lisa

[Jundo]

Hi Lisa,

Yes, that is his broad brush. In fact, almost all the Rinzai AND Soto Teachers I know are actually Teaching that there is Attainment and endless attainments and depths along the way, one should never be complacent and Practice never ends (not so long as our hearts are beating anyway).

This is the old debate about whether Soto or Rinzai is about "Sudden" or "Gradual" enlightenment. In fact, almost all good Zen Teachers I know of all flavors will say the each is Both! In Soto too, Realization happens again and again and again Suddenly in each moment and gesture when can see, yet the Path of truly getting such in one's bones is step by step. It is much like saying that, at some point we suddenly realize that we have been on the Buddha Mountain all along ... the bottom and the top and every scene and step along the way, all the Buddha Mountain with no place to get away from it ... yet we continue, step by gradual step, continuing our walk up Buddha Mountain.

Gassho, J

[Byokan]

Hoohah!

[Oukan]

Howdy,

I'd like to continue this special series of "readings that will help in understanding Zen readings" with a bit more of ...

Once-Born, Twice-Born Zen by Conrad Hyers

I agree with those folks who think the "Once-Born Twice-Born" categories are a bit black/white and broad brush. I do think the book helpful, though, in appreciating these contrasting, but complementary flavors of Zen practice. The descriptions are pretty accurate portraits of these two "not-two schools" of approach, I find.

As always, I emphasize that it is not a question of insisting that one way or the other is the "only way" or even "right way".

This week's reading can be downloaded here (PDF) ...

https://sites.google.com/site/jundotreeleaf/OnceBornTwiceBornZenCh5UPLOAD.pdf?attredirects=0&d=1

Gassho, J

Hi Jundo,

The link for the second part 'oncebornteicebornzen' isn't working for me is there another link?

Gassho
Sat2day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mp]

Hi Jundo,

The link for the second part 'oncebornteicebornzen' isn't working for me is there another link?

Gassho
Sat2day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hey there Oukan,

I tried it and it worked for me ... give this a try https://sites.google.com/site/jundot...edirects=0&d=1 =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Oukan]

Hey there Oukan,

I tried it and it worked for me ... give this a try https://sites.google.com/site/jundot...edirects=0&d=1 =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

Thank you Shingen works just not on tapatalk. Think I'm going to go back to just using the forum. Too complex for me.

Gassho


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