Special reading - once born twice born zen (part not 1)

[Dosho]

Re: 0606 - SPECIAL READING - ONCE BORN TWICE BORN ZEN - CH 1.

Hi all,

I found it to be a very interesting article and one of the first academic pieces I've read since I left graduate school...that brought back some strong emotions! The distinctions he drew seemed too simple and sharp since everything in life is more shades of grey than academic papers would have you believe. Still, it was very informative and I thank Jundo for providing it to us.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Yugen]

Re: 0606 - SPECIAL READING - ONCE BORN TWICE BORN ZEN - CH 1.

Brian,
I agree with your post and line of thinking. The sharp distinctions between Rinzai and Soto seem to be more a matter of historiography and doctrinal competition. More recent scholarship indicates that the boundaries between Rinzai and Soto in the area of Koan use are not as sharp as the (deliberately created) historical record would have us believe. Sort of like the differences between the Red Sox and Yankees, but they both play baseball! What I find more interesting is the first born / twice born discussion deriving from William James. I have found characteristics of both in my own life! Must we choose?

Gassho,
Alex

[Dosho]

Re: 0606 - SPECIAL READING - ONCE BORN TWICE BORN ZEN - CH 1.

Sort of like the differences between the Red Sox and Yankees, but they both play baseball! What I find more interesting is the first born / twice born discussion deriving from William James. I have found characteristics of both in my own life! Must we choose?

That's a very good analogy about the Red Sox and Yankees, something I always emphasize as a Sox fan with a Yankees fan. We may be on opposite sides of a rivalry, but the fact that we are both big baseball fans makes us have more in common than just about anyone else. I guess provincial differences can seem magnified with so much that's alike.

BTW, concerning the William James typology that the author uses. He leaves a bit of an impression that James looked down on Buddhism, but I was re-reading The Varieties of Religious Experience and James was really using it as an example of a religion that didn't have a deity. He even admitted his lack of knowledge on the topic: "I am ignorant of Buddhism and speak under correction and merely in order the better to describe my general point of view".

[Jundo]

Re: 0606 - SPECIAL READING - ONCE BORN TWICE BORN ZEN - CH 1.

thank you for this reading Jundo and your comment which I found very helpful. Having previously studied with John Daido Loori I find myself on the part of the mountain where I do not find these approaches mutually exclusive and in contemporary practice there does seem to be an approach which is trying to integrate these two ways.

as perhaps one of the leading practitioners taking this route I'd be grateful for the sanghas comments on Daido's article Dogen and Koans available at http://www.mro.org/mr/archive/24-2/arti ... daido.html in which Daido states:

Not as popular as Dogen’s Kana Shobogenzo is his Mana or Sambyakusoku Shobogenzo (The Shobogenzo of Three Hundred Koans), a collection of three hundred cases that Dogen collected during his travels in China from 1227 to 1230.

Hi Brian,

Ah, you have opened a bit of a can of Koans!

Okay, this is a subject that comes up from time to time, and takes a little explaining. LET ME EMPHASIZE AGAIN THAT THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IS PRIMARILY TO HELP THE READER OF ZEN BOOKS PLACE WHERE THE PARTICULAR TEACHER/WRITER IS COMING FROM. I am a BIG Daido Loori fan and, in fact, I consider a teacher in that same lineage (Doshin Cantor) to be one of my teachers. Daido's lineage (stemming from Maezumi Roshi) is perhaps the largest lineage in North America (including people ranging from Bernie Glassman to Genpo Merzel to Pat Enkyo O'Hara to Joko Beck to Chozen Bays to Joan Halifax to Father Robert Kennedy to many others). A powerful lineage with great teachers. I am a big Bernie Glassman/Daido/Joko Beck fan in particular. The extended lineage (known as the Sanbokyodan-Harada-Yasutani School) is listed here:

http://www.ciolek.com/WWWVLPages/ZenPages/HaradaYasutani.html

That being said, the educated "Zen reader" should know that that particular branch of Soto is actually a relatively recent hybrid merging of Soto and Rinzai (not so Soto), that emphasizes Koan centered Zazen as their dominant practice over Shikantaza (although they practice both at various stages of their training). They practice Shikanataza too, although usually through the lens of "Koan Zazen" and achieving Kensho.

Again, I am not being critical, although our way is different (same ... but different). I primarily provide such information because folks should know that there are very different approaches to Zen and Zazen, and not all "Zen" is of the same flavor (same ... but different). Thus, folks go to the book store and pick up a "Zen" book, or listen to a talk, and wonder why the contents seem so different sometimes (same ... but different ) I posted the following a couple of times ...

[quote]as I have mentioned a few times, there is a relatively recent line that popped up within Soto-shu that actually is a hybrid with Rinzai Zen (their priests are also Rinzai priests) and, more importantly, largely split off from both to form an organization called Sanbokyodan. Those within the lineage that did not split from Soto are rather a breed all their own within it. That line is much much more influential outside Japan than in Japan, because it happens to be the source of such lineages as the Diamond Sangha (Aitken Roshi), Rochester Zen Center (Kapleau Roshi) and the White Plum (Maezumi Roshi). While the Sanbokyodan portion left Soto-shu, some of their people stayed within Soto-shu in name (including the priest who established the two temples you mention (Toshoji and Kannonji).

The Sanbôkyôdan (Three Treasures Association) is a contemporary Zen movement that was founded by Yasutani Hakuun (1885-1973) in 1954. The style of Zen propagated by Sanbôkyôdan teachers, noteworthy for its single-minded emphasis on the experience of kenshô, diverges markedly from more traditional models found in Sôtô, Rinzai, or Oobaku training halls. ... There is little in Kapleau's book to suggest that his teachers were anything but respected members of orthodox Zen monastic orders. Yet such was not the case, for in 1954 Yasutani Hakuun (1885-1973), the Zen priest whose teachings are featured in The Three Pillars of Zen, severed his formal ties to the Sôtô school in order to establish an independent Zen organization called the Sanbôkyôdan, or "Three Treasures Association." The influence exerted by this contemporary lay reform movement on American Zen is out of proportion to its relatively marginal status in Japan: modern Rinzai and Sôtô monks are generally unaware of, or indifferent to, the polemical attacks that Yasutani and his followers direct against the Zen priesthood. Orthodox priests are similarly unmoved by claims to the effect that the Sanbôkyôdan alone preserves the authentic teachings of Zen. ...

The only acceptable "solution" to the mu kôan in the Sanbôkyôdan is a credible report of a kenshô experience, and beginning students are subject to intense pressure during sesshin -- including the generous application of the "warning stick" (kyôsaku or keisaku) -- in order to expedite this experience. The unrelenting emphasis on kenshô and the vigorous tactics used to bring it about constitute the single most distinctive (and controversial) feature of the Sanbôkyôdan method. Eido Shimano, recalling Yasutani's first sesshin in Hawaii in 1962, writes:

The night before sesshin started, Yasutani Roshi said to the participants, "To experience kensho is crucial, but we are so lazy. Therefore, during sesshin we have to set up a special atmosphere so that all participants can go straight ahead toward the goal. First, absolute silence should be observed. Second, you must not look around. Third, forget about the usual courtesies and etiquette" . . . He also told the participants, and later told me privately as well, of the need for frequent use of the keisaku. That five-day sesshin was as hysterical as it was historical. It ended with what Yasutani Roshi considered five kenshô experiences.
(Nyogen et al. 1976, pp. 184-85)[28]

While Yasutani's successors are considerably more reserved in their use of the kyôsaku, the emphasis on kenshô has not diminished, prompting one student of Yamada to refer to the San'un Zendô as a "kenshô machine" (Levine 1992, p. 72).
Students who do succeed in passing mu, along with a number of kôans used specifically to test the veracity of the experience (such as the "sound of one hand"), are publicly recognized
...

The rôshi will remind the student, both in private interviews and in public talks, that kenshô is only the first small step along the path to full awakening. Be that as it may, the Sanbôkyôdan treats kenshô as a significant achievement. Upon attaining kenshô students are publicly lauded in the jahai ceremony, and encouraged to write a report of their experience for publication in Kyôshô. The names of post-kenshô students are clearly marked with a circle on sesshin seating plans, and as mentioned above, a second zendô may be provided allowing the post-kenshô group to practice apart from the others. Finally, pre- and post-kenshô students are often listed separately in the sesshin reports that appear in Kyôshô. (Note that each of these practices are Sanbôkyôdan innovations -- there are no public rites of passage marking the attainment of kenshô in Sôtô or Rinzai monasteries.)

Following the teacher's authentication of kenshô, Sanbôkyôdan students move through a program of 600 to 700 kôans following a format set by Harada based in part on traditional Rinzai models. The practitioner first tackles the "miscellaneous kôans," which consist of approximately twenty-two kôans in fifty-seven parts. He or she then moves through the Mumonkan, Hekiganroku, Shôyôroku, and Denkôroku [?MÆ] kôans, followed by Tôzan's five ranks (Tôzan goi), and three sets of precepts.[30]

Whereas passage through mu requires nothing short of kenshô, passage through the remaining kôans is relatively straightforward. After formally approaching and bowing to the rôshi the Sanbôkyôdan student recites his or her kôan, and then presents (or "demonstrates") his or her understanding. If the answer is deemed satisfactory, the teacher himself may supply a more "traditional" response. All of this is more-or-less typical of Rinzai practice today. However, Sanbôkyôdan teachers do not use jakugo (capping phrases) -- set phrases culled from classical Chinese literature used to test and refine a monk's understanding of a kôan.[31] Moreover, unlike Rinzai monks, Sanbôkyôdan practitioners are not required to compose written expositions of the kôans in the latter stages of their training.[32] The Sanbôkyôdan has, in short, sharply curtailed the explicitly "literary" aspects of kôan training.

As a result, once they have passed mu Sanbôkyôdan students tend to move through the remaining kôans at a relatively rapid pace, often completing one kôan per interview. With regular access to a teacher and frequent participation in sesshin, a practitioner can complete the entire course of post-kenshô kôans in approximately five years. At the same time, if the rôshi feels that there are inadequacies in the student's training, he may reassign certain kôans in dokusan (including mu), and Yamada led periodic study groups (kenshukai) for advanced students in which he reviewed the kôans in a more seminar-like setting.

Once the kôans are complete, students proceed through a series of higher certifications that allow them to teach and may eventually result in Dharma transmission. There is considerable ambiguity in this regard, however, in part because the Sanbôkyôdan draws simultaneously from Sôtô and Rinzai conceptions of transmission -- conceptions that are not always compatible with one another. This is responsible in part for the controversy over the teaching authority of Yamada's senior disciples that emerged following his death, an issue to which I will return below.


http://www.terebess.hu/english/sharf.html

Even for the "Just Sitting" Shikantaza form of meditation, I believe that Yasutani Roshi (root of the Sanbo Kyodan, Diamond Sangha, White Plum and others), who was the "Big Explosive Kensho" teacher who mixed Rinzai and Soto practices, emphasized a more "sweat pouring down your brow" species of Shikantaza. Please read his essay on Page 51 to 53 of this book

http://books.google.com/books?id=k6O9SvkkQLAC&dq=%22the+art+of+just+sitting%22&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=lMQ5qfCKQe&sig=n4it81dRPBCFXRHd2IN1nq-Fuxk&hl=en&ei=aiizSaDkF5LFkAXn18DDBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA52,M1

also viewable here (you can search the word "Yasutani) ...

http://www.amazon.com/Art-Just-Sitting-Second-Shikantaza/dp/086171394X

Now, one real criticism I do have is that some folks in that lineage are regularly writing books and articles in which they try to prove or assert that Dogen was also a "Koan Zazen" or "Big Kensho seeking" guy (the talk you mention, Brian, is subtly part of that).

Dogen simply was not, no matter how much they try to 'revision' history. (Our Soto perspective on "Kensho", by the way, is that sometimes such views appear, sometimes they do not, sometimes they are big little or not, and all is the scenery of Zazen. We run after nothing, seek no special states ... with the perspective that "not seeking to-the-marrow any special state" --IS-- a very very special state and way to be).

That being said, there is no doubt that DOGEN LOVED KOANS, as do all Soto teachers. Dogen loved Koans, taught Koans, spoke about Koans in most of his talks. Dogen's writings are chock full of Koans. All Soto teachers teach through Koans, me too. However, on the subject of holding a Koan, or part of a Koan, in mind during Zazen on the cushion ... raising a "Great Doubt" and such in order to attain a blasting "Kensho" ... Dogen was quite clear, and that was not his method. As Steve Heine, one of the best Dogenologists out there, wrote in his classic "Dogen and the Koan Tradition":

In several passages of his writings Dogen explicitly refutes the use of koans ... When Dogen does deal in his writings with the issue of the meaning and importance of the koan, he seems to prefer the doctrine of genjokoan (spontaneous manifestation of the koan in concrete activities) to the Rinzai approach known as kanna-zen (introspecting the koan), which involves examining and contemplating kosoku- koan (old sayings or paradigmatic cases) included in koan collections

and

[quote] the terms Dogen refers to as the object of his critique are koan-wato in connection with kosoku-koan, which suggests that he specifically refutes the wato technique of interpreting koans, and not necessarily the koan in and of itself.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZmIOZQ

TO EMPHASIZE AGAIN: Both "Soto" and "Rinzai" love Koans. We approach Koans in the same way, with the "non-thinking" mind, to pierce through the words and behind the words and illuminate the words and no words. But, in Soto practice, we simply do not hold a Koan, or a phrase from a Koan, in mind during seated Zazen in order to reach an experience of Kensho. Soto tends to drop away all thoughts, Koans or not, and see the action of sitting as the ultimate Koan realized ... Our approach to Koans is very different from the flavor described in the article on Sanbokyodan above, and any attempt to revise history on that regard is, I feel, not proper.

Anyway, the difference are differences, yet all is the same.

Gassho, Jundo

[Tb]

Re: 0606 - SPECIAL READING - ONCE BORN TWICE BORN ZEN - CH 1.

Hi.

I agree with OJ on the part of people too strongly trying to hit other perople in the head with their opinions.
Instead of trying to prove others wrong it's better to help them along the path (wherever it leads them).
(although it is interesting/educational to read comments from both sides on the subject).
And using written text to prove your point isn't so hard, (I would know as i'm currently doing a master thesis on the pedagogy of buddhism...), the hard part is seeing if it so.

Mtfbwy
Tb

[Jundo]

Re: 0606 - SPECIAL READING - ONCE BORN TWICE BORN ZEN - CH 1.

Hi Fugen,

Yes, we do not need to bash one or the other, and all can respect our sameness and difference. There is soccer, there is American football ... both lovely games, same while different ... different while the same. No need to say which is "better" or "worse", and we should respect the difference and the sameness. It may be that some people are better suited for one than the other.

I think there is as much peril in trying to say they are "exactly the same", as saying that they are "extremely different". Why do that? Appreciate and honor each for what each is, as well as their common heart.

Getting back to my posting on Sanbokyodan, and as someone who sat and taught at a Sangha in that Lineage (White Plum) for quite a few years ... I would say that most of the North American teachers I know in that lineage have come to a much more gentle, less "Kensho or Bust" approach to practice than Harada Roshi and Yasutani Roshi, their source. In that way, they are much more "easy & gentle", much more "Soto, Once Born" their the original "Twice Born" spirit of Sanbokyodan. So, for example, one might often feel none of that hot flavor in a book by Joko Beck, for example, who has come much closer to a return to "Just Sitting".

However, it remains true that Daido and some others do have a tendency to emphasize Shikantaza as a preliminary practice, or to teach that it is pretty much just "following the breath" (not a very sophisticated view of Shikantaza). And also to teach that Dogen actually wanted everyone really to pursue Koan Zazen, so that is still there. I do not believe that is right or historically justified.

Gassho, Jundo

[shogyo]

Re: 0606 - SPECIAL READING - ONCE BORN TWICE BORN ZEN - CH 1.

thank you Jundo for helping me to move through that one and to see the issues a bit more clearly

gassho
Brian

[Shohei]

Re: 0606 - SPECIAL READING - ONCE BORN TWICE BORN ZEN - CH 1.

Thanks for posting this bit of reading
and for the posts that followed.
Gassho Shohei

[Eika]

Re: 0606 - SPECIAL READING - ONCE BORN TWICE BORN ZEN - CH 1.

No need to say which is "better" or "worse", and we should respect the difference and the sameness. It may be that some people are better suited for one than the other.
Gassho, Jundo

Amen. These differences are about the temperament of the student more than the truth of the teaching (even though not all teachings/teachers are equally effective).

I think there is as much peril in trying to say they are "exactly the same", as saying that they are "extremely different". Why do that? Appreciate and honor each for what each is, as well as their common heart.

A very pomo and valid view of many things related to people and their baggage, beliefs, etc. All music is not the same. Some music seeks to do very different things than other forms of music . . . that's a good thing. For centuries it has been the Western mindset to try to define beauty and value in a clear and universal manner. This effort has always been frustrated by the variety of valuable musical approaches that human beings create. So, they are not all the same, that's what makes them so valuable.

And using written text to prove your point isn't so hard, (I would know as i'm currently doing a master thesis on the pedagogy of buddhism...), the hard part is seeing if it so.

Thanks, Fugen. The Force is strong in you.

The distinctions he drew seemed too simple and sharp since everything in life is more shades of grey than academic papers would have you believe.

I agree. One of the problems with a taxonomic approach to anything is that each stage requires a simple yes or no answer as to whether the object in question shares trait X with others or deviates.

Peace and gassho,
Bill

[Kevin]

Re: 0606 - SPECIAL READING - ONCE BORN TWICE BORN ZEN - CH 1.

What I find more interesting is the first born / twice born discussion deriving from William James. I have found characteristics of both in my own life! Must we choose?

As I was reading that section, I, too, kept thinking, "Man, the descriptions of the Rinzai people (depression, numbness, tension, conflict) sound way more like me than the descriptions of the blissful, well-adjusted Soto folks (emotionally stable, live life enthusiastically, only brief periods of doubt, confusion, and uncertainty, with the source mainly external)."

However, though I've never tried Rinzai-style, I find Shikantaza to feel right to me. Should I head off to Kanzeon Zen Center in downtown Salt Lake City to give Genpo Roshi a try? He's got the Big Mind deal going that guarantees kensho in one weekend workshop for the low, low price of $297 (for the early-bird special) or $397 (for the depressed, doubtful, confused, emotionally unstable slacker who can't commit until the last minute). I'd like to experience other techniques to see how the work for me, but I'm pretty comfortable with Soto already and I don't think I can afford (financially) the experimentation.

I dunno. In the end, does it really matter what path one takes if they all lead essentially to the same place?

Should I look into Rinzai schools (not a rhetorical question)? Koan study and regular dokusan do sound kinda nice, sometimes... Or should I just buy Nishijima's translation of Shinji Shobogenzo :wink: ?

Gassho,
Kevin

[will]

Re: 0606 - SPECIAL READING - ONCE BORN TWICE BORN ZEN - CH 1.

low price of $297 (for the early-bird special) or $397 (for the depressed, doubtful, confused, emotionally unstable slacker who can't commit until the last minute)

I wonder how much Dogen got paid to write the Shobogenzo.

Gassho

W

[Jundo]

Re: 0606 - SPECIAL READING - ONCE BORN TWICE BORN ZEN - CH 1.

the Rinzai people (depression, numbness, tension, conflict) sound way more like me than the descriptions of the blissful, well-adjusted Soto folks (emotionally stable, live life enthusiastically, only brief periods of doubt, confusion, and uncertainty, with the source mainly external)."

However, though I've never tried Rinzai-style, I find Shikantaza to feel right to me.

Yes, both are wonderful paths. The description in the book (about Rinzai practice being associated with "depression, numbness, tension, conflict") is not only very broad brush, but also not really true (many folks come to Soto practice, and truly benefit from "just sitting", because of depression, neurosis and the like. I was depressed for many years, and rather neurotic and "burned out" personally, before coming to this practice 25 years ago). In any case, the book's description is supposed to be talking about the person -before- Zen practice, not after the fruits have been realized.

So, I think the description in the book of the two practices is generally accurate (at least with regard to Rinzai practice in a "hard" Japanese style), but the labeling of the "type of person" who would be attracted to/benefit from each is not so accurate.

As a matter of fact, let me tell you the reason I think "Just Sitting" might be better for many or most depressives, neurotic individuals, etc.

I sometimes say that the hard "Kensho" style blasts a tunnel through the rocks of the mountain with dynamite, carving out a new tunnel ... and our "Just Sitting" style takes the slow, winding, unhurried, road 'round the outside of the mountain. But, in both cases, the point is the mountain is enlightenment and ever underfoot, so both are instantaneously arriving at the same place (and, anyway, what mountain?)

Or, I sometimes say that the Rinzai folks like to punch a hole through the wall separating "self" and "other" by using dynamite, while Dogen's way is like the air itself ... gently filling all the cracks in the bricks, both this side and the other, and even the bricks themselves until all 'tis just the one beyond one. Thus, self and other are just as gone gone gone.

Now, both have there dangers too ...

I believe in Rinzai, sometimes, the danger is that the powerful dynamite blast will often explode in one's face or bring the whole pile of stones tumbling down on the person's head! You are playing with dynamite there, which can open a road or cause an avalanche. Takes work with a good teacher, like a good explosives expert, to bring about a good result.

On the other hand, Soto Practice should never be allowed to become apathy. Someone's "just sitting around" doing nothing, going no where, complacent or resigned, giving up, eating one's fill, is not in any way the same as "Just Sitting" practice wherein nothing need be done, with no where that we can go or need go, for all is faced 'head on' and energetically as already whole and complete.

But to the extent depression is caused by "overthinking" or "falling into negative thoughts and emotions" ... and to the extent neurosis involves being tied up in inner cognitive and emotional conflicts, excess fears, regrets ... and to the extent that the practice of "Just Sitting" Shikantaza involves dropping and seeing through such thoughts, excess emotions, fears and regrets ... then I believe "Just Sitting" Shikantaza is naturally an excellent medicine for such forms of depression and neurotic self-entrapment. At least, I found it so in my life over the years.

Gassho, Jundo

[will]

Re: 0606 - SPECIAL READING - ONCE BORN TWICE BORN ZEN - CH 1.

dropping and seeing through such thoughts, excess emotions, fears and regrets

Also, we should not forget. It is the dropping or seeing through to what? Openess, and both Body and Mind (not two right? )plays a part as well. So seeing through and dropping to allow a wider picture.


Gassho

W

[Jundo]

Re: 0606 - SPECIAL READING - ONCE BORN TWICE BORN ZEN - CH 1.

dropping and seeing through such thoughts, excess emotions, fears and regrets

Also, we should not forget. It is the dropping or seeing through to what? Openess, and both Body and Mind (not two right? )plays a part as well. So seeing through and dropping to allow a wider picture.


Gassho

W

Yes, yes, yes.

[Jinyu]

Re: 0606 - SPECIAL READING - ONCE BORN TWICE BORN ZEN - CH 1.

It is probably a bit too late to comment this chapter, but with my exams... I'm always late these days!

Of course a lot has been said an digging again the same pit won't be interesting...

I've found the book very well written and documented, however, from the first paragraphs, I felt a bit strange because of a certain flavour of "partiality". Maybe because Rinzai is "most known" as he says in the book. And he wanted Soto Zen to be known too. However, it's hard to judge with just the first chapter

On the other hand, Well I'm an historian, and I can't hide my historical point of view when I'm reading an article.
Even if sometimes, It would be greath! :P

And I just wanted to had some general historical thoughts about schools or traditions who came to me during the reading.

History of religions and philosophy is fluid. A religion always try to adapt, being integrist or traditionalist is also a step in this adaptation. But only a step, it don't represent the all tradition or school.
Then, the Idea of "purity in a lineage", is something a bit unrealistic. In fact, traditional schools are often redefined and the notion of purity is a part of this redefinition.

There also, the fact that a man, by himself, could change the face of a tradition (or lineage or school).
Often, the tradition, being more and more secularised, lost is true link with society. And, in this case, a single man who's aware of things as they are, could bring to the scene, new forms of practices. And, those practices, beliefs,... could stay and grow because they are in accord with people needs and thoughts. (Bouddha, Nestorius, Francois d'Assise, St Benoit, Dogen,...and these are just a few!)

Religions are fluid then the interpretations, of the same texts or beliefs, are very different across the ages. We must keep in mind religions aren't monolithic, and we must keep our minds from generalizing too much on religions.

Well, I hope I'm not too 'out of subject', And I apologies again with my english!

Gassho to all !

Luis