Soto Zen is not, and should not be, Byron Katie's 'The Work' (A Tentative Conclusion)

[Jundo]

... Ultimately this is on me, and since I did not finish the activities ...

Yes, it is on you. It is all on you. Don't blame the workbook.

(Sorry, I could not resist a little "The Work" joke here. )

Gassho, J

STLah

[Gram]

Hi Folks,
Sorry for the reply to an old thread. I'm discovering interesting old threads!

With particular regard to your comment about trauma and PTSD Jundo, is anybody familiar with Gabor Mate's work. I think his work in this field particularly awesome!

Any comments?

Gram

Sat today

[Gram]

Hi Folks,

Me again! I'd like make a comment about Trunpa Rinpoche. I think he's one of the greatest spiritual Masters of our time, however psychologically he's an infant, he woke up in a monastery when he was a child, so all his awakening experienced is referenced to that time. We have to wake and grow up. They don't happen simultaneously.

Love,

Gram

S today

[Gram]

Hi Folks,

Me again! Byron Katie has a very refined sense of consciousness. Anyone who can really hear the truth behind her statement "when I'm walking to the gas chamber, other than what I'm thinking and feeling, what an amazing day" has also a refined sense of consciousness. Her work is phenomenal and can be taken seriously. If you're not ready to hear her depth then it's not for you.

Love,

Gram

Sat today

[Kokuu]

Hi Gram

Do you think someone can be a great spiritual master if it is not integrated into their life?

I have gained a huge amount from reading Chögyam Trungpa's books over the years but I find a total disconnect between the down-to-earth wisdom in his teachings and the numerous reports and records of how he lived his life.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Kokuu]

Gram,

From a Zen point of view Byron Katie's pointing to the absolute nature of reality is not wrong, in terms of everything being perfect and whole right here and right now.

However, from the relative perspective, it seems that she can often negate the voice of people suffering from trauma and abuse which is psychologically reall unhealthy. It is one thing to help people gain perspective and understand that suffering can be self-created, and another to complete negate feelings which is antithetical to what we teach here.

Perhaps those criticising Katie are not 'not ready to hear her depth' but rather have noticed something really important that is happening with her work which can have negative consequences, especially for people dealing with abuse and trauma. These are three such critical accounts from trained therapist and others:

https://gurumag.com/a-critique-of-byron-katies-the-work/

http://www.pennilessparenting.com/2019/10/my-tremendous-issues-with-byron-katies.html

https://www.new-synapse.com/aps/wordpress/?p=296

At Treeleaf, we are not in the habit of telling anyone which teachings to find helpful (and there are good things about The Work) but we encourage people to look deeper into Byron Katie before engaging with what she teaches, particularly if you are dealing with trauma.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Gram]

Hi Kokuu,

I think that someone like Trungpa has profound spiritual insight, and yes I guess it would not make him a master in that sense.

Gassho
Gram
sattoday

[Gram]

Hi Kokuu,

I agree with what you're trying to say and yes it's not what we do at here at Treeleaf.

I don't recommend Katie's work for anyone new to the spiritual path. Her work is NOT therapy and it's therefore not useful to critique her work through a therapeutic lens.

Gassho
Gram
sat today

[Jundo]

Hi Kokuu,

I think that someone like Trungpa has profound spiritual insight, and yes I guess it would not make him a master in that sense.

Gassho
Gram
sattoday

One can have a great deal of insight into emptiness and the Buddhist teachings, and one can have a great deal of charisma and be a charming personality ...

... but at a certain point, the addictions, the cultish excesses, the manipulation and sexual abuse of others must discount much of that.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jeff Naylor]

I spent a decade or so studying Trungpa and hanging out with his students. Many of his most prominent students displayed a disturbingly large capacity to justify as "enlightened behavior" activities that my 5 year olds know are mean and harmful. Unfortunately, there are credible reports that such a capacity for justification created environments where sexual predators thrived, and where such predators were even promoted as spiritual teachers, giving them further access to vulnerable people for them to exploit.

I find promotion of Trungpas teachings as being profound.... triggering. In practice, I don't think the advice to "separate the teachings from the teacher" or, "to separate the art from the artist" to be the healthiest teachings to promote amongst the type of people that are seeking spiritual teachings, teachers, or community. No one goes to Picasso or Weinstein for instructions on spiritual lifestyle choices, but people definitely go to people held up as spiritual teachers and their communities for such inspiration.

[Jeff Naylor]

I spent a decade or so studying Trungpa and hanging out with his students. Many of his most prominent students displayed a disturbingly large capacity to justify as "enlightened behavior" activities that my 5 year olds know are mean and harmful. Unfortunately, there are credible reports that such a capacity for justification created environments where sexual predators thrived, and where such predators were even promoted as spiritual teachers, giving them further access to vulnerable people for them to exploit.

I find promotion of Trungpas teachings as being profound.... triggering. In practice, I don't think the advice to "separate the teachings from the teacher" or, "to separate the art from the artist" to be the healthiest teachings to promote amongst the type of people that are seeking spiritual teachings, teachers, or community. No one goes to Picasso or Weinstein for instructions on spiritual lifestyle choices, but people definitely go to people held up as spiritual teachers and their communities for such inspiration.

Woops, sorry, out of practice on community norms. Going to go sit today right now.

[Bion]

Woops, sorry, out of practice on community norms. Going to go sit today right now.

Jeff! How lovely seeing you again! [emoji3526]

[emoji1374] SatToday

[Jeff Naylor]

Jeff! How lovely seeing you again! [emoji3526]

[emoji1374] SatToday

Good to see you too! Nice new threads on display in your photo...

[Bion]

Good to see you too! Nice new threads on display in your photo...

I have been “buddhified” to capacity [emoji1787] [emoji1787] [emoji1787]

[emoji1374] SatToday

[bakera3312]

One can have a great deal of insight into emptiness and the Buddhist teachings, and one can have a great deal of charisma and be a charming personality ...

... but at a certain point, the addictions, the cultish excesses, the manipulation and sexual abuse of others must discount much of that.

Gassho, J

STLah

Well said. Considering Trungpa drank himself to death, and abused people doesnt seem to me to be "Buddha" actions.