Zen: At the Still Center of History's Changes

[Ryumon]

I feel ya on this, but I gotta step away from those feels, and take a higher perspective.
Why cloak compassion in defiance? Compassion is a worthy enough target, it shouldn't need a back story.

It seems to me that defiance against an oppressive power is compassion for those who are being oppressed.

Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat Lah

[Green Ben]

It seems to me that defiance against an oppressive power is compassion for those who are being oppressed.

Just speaking for myself, “defiance” carries a trace of anger and self-righteousness, these are parts of myself I do not wish to feed.
While compassion for the oppressed is admirable, if there is ever to be reconciliation and healing, we must also be compassionate to the oppressors. Not overlooking the suffering they cause, but not turning them into monsters in our narrative, either.

Gassho

stlah

[StephenB]

Striving for and practicing compassion when things are going well and turning out how I want it, is nice. Striving for and practicing compassion when things aren't going well, and things aren't going my way, is foundationally necessary and the most difficult for me to do. It's also the most rewarding for all involved.

Gassho
stlah

[Jundo]

Just speaking for myself, “defiance” carries a trace of anger and self-righteousness, these are parts of myself I do not wish to feed.
While compassion for the oppressed is admirable, if there is ever to be reconciliation and healing, we must also be compassionate to the oppressors. Not overlooking the suffering they cause, but not turning them into monsters in our narrative, either.

Gassho

stlah

We have discussed in the past the Buddhist concept of "righteous anger," although it is truly playing with fire. You have probably seen, in Tibetan Buddhism, images of "wrathful" deities who turn their "pure anger" toward such causes as the protection of the Dharma and the saving of all Sentient Beings ... their wrath is directed at fighting evil, fire with fire ...
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LINK ABOUT WRATHFUL DIETIES

... so maybe, rather than ordinary human anger, one might feel a sense of sadness and concern for the suffering of others, injustice, energy stoked by a sense of resistance, indignation and defiance within the heart that is well managed like the fires of a motor or hearth ...

... although unchecked anger is truly fire & TNT, and has potential to do great harm. It is more likely to end up as a fight in a bar, a broken relationship or starting a war than it is to do any positive good. As well, there are other emotions and perspectives which can accomplish the positive goods more effectively.

So, for example, calm reflection, looking for a constructive solution and keeping one's head as much as possible while taking effective action is an approach more likely to solve a problem in this world or in one's life than tossing more fuel on the fires of hate. ... Perhaps, "righteous indignation" or "tough love" (if a parent ... even the Zen Master's "30 blows" are more of this kind) or "a firm hand with a calm mind" may be justified by a situation ... taking steps to stop the bad while remembering that the bad actors are themselves driven by poisons within of greed, anger and divided thinking, and are victims too of those poisons. Yes, the harm doers are victims of anger too ... even if we sometimes must take action to stop the harm they do.

So, I would say that "righteous defiance" may be appropriate in some terrible situation, but true anger should be avoided. (I have preached much the same to our Ukranian members who ask how they should respond to an attack on their home.)

We discuss the subject more during our study reflections for the Jukai Precepts ...

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[Green Ben]

We have discussed in the past the Buddhist concept of "righteous anger," although it is truly playing with fire. You have probably seen, in Tibetan Buddhism, images of "wrathful" deities who turn their "pure anger" toward such causes as the protection of the Dharma and the saving of all Sentient Beings ... their wrath is directed at fighting evil, fire with fire ...

I do have a fondness for Fudo Myoo, but more as symbol of immovability in the dedication to the liberation of all beings, than positive use of anger.

... so maybe, rather than ordinary human anger, one might feel a sense of sadness and concern for the suffering of others, injustice, energy stoked by a sense of resistance, indignation and defiance within the heart that are well managed like the fires of a motor or hearth ...

... although unchecked anger is truly fire & TNT, and has potential to do great harm. It is more likely to end up as a fight in a bar, a broken relationship or starting a war than it is to do any positive good. As well, there are other emotions and perspective which can accomplish the positive goods more effectively.

So, for example, calm reflection, looking for a constructive solution and keeping one's head as much as possible while taking effective action is an approach more likely to solve a problem in this world or in one's life than tossing more fuel on the fires of hate. ... Perhaps, "righteous indignation" or "tough love" (if a parent ... even the Zen Master's "30 blows" are more of this kind) or "a firm hand with a calm mind" may be justified by a situation ... taken steps while remembering that the bad actors are themselves driven by poisons within of greed, anger and divided thinking, and are victims too of those poisons. Yes, the harm doers are victims of anger too ... even if we sometimes must take action to stop the harm they do.

So, I would say that "righteous defiance" may be appropriate in some terrible situation, but true anger should be avoided. (I have preached much the same to our Ukranian members who ask how they should respond to an attack on their home.)

We discuss the subject more during our study reflections for the Jukai Precepts ...

I've probably gotten "over my skis" on this one. I certainly do not feel qualified to comment on how a Ukranian should deal with anger at this time, if I were in such a conversation, I imagine they could teach me valuable insights on walking the tightrope of Right Action.

I've dipped a toe into lurking on some of the Precepts threads, but am waiting to dive in until I've gone through more of the beginners talks. Still learning to walk without holding the waist of my pants.

Sorry for running long.

Gassho

stlah

[Nathan Noble]

We have discussed in the past the Buddhist concept of "righteous anger," although it is truly playing with fire.
So, I would say that "righteous defiance" may be appropriate in some terrible situation, but true anger should be avoided.



"Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering" - Jedi Master Yoda.

[Chikyou]

Thank you Jundo for this discussion and for linking me to it yesterday because I had missed it. I’m very worried, and frankly, embarrassed by these results. A friend of mine who is the daughter of a Ukrainian refugee to the US, is terrified.

It’a difficult not to be consumed with anger.

Gassho,
SatLah
Chikyō