Jundo: Not Turning from All Good Ways, Yesterday, Today, Tomorrow ...

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40288

    Jundo: Not Turning from All Good Ways, Yesterday, Today, Tomorrow ...


    At Treeleaf, we turn toward, not from, all good ways to realize Buddhist Wisdom and Compassion, to aid suffering beings, including ancient and traditional ways, modern ways, as well as future ways (many coming very soon), if healthy, helpful, ethical and beneficial.

    There is nothing to reject in the old ways, nothing but this present moment, nothing to fear about something new and innovative if used skillfully, ethically and wisely.

    I have had some folks say that I should not mention science, technology and medicine, or do so much less, and should hide my interest in such topics. Some folks have threatened to leave our Sangha (or have actually walked out the door already) upset that we are not primarily focused on the traditional and ancient alone, or "being in the moment" today, asking me to speak little about some could-be-soon-to-be world. Some say we should not talk about tomorrow because we cannot know tomorrow for sure, or are not fully expert in all topics.

    But, in my heart (and Bob Dylan's ) "you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows." We should not fear just to talk about such things, nor cancel their mention, even if some threaten to go.

    Not everyone has to be interested in such topics, and at Treeleaf, it is fine for someone to focus on other things. We have something for all walkers of the path, and not everyone needs to be the same. Stay and be you. But I say that some of us can (even must) consider all times: honoring and turning toward the rich Teachings and Practices of the past, bringing all into life in the present, while starting to talk about and prepare for futures which appear more and more to be just around the corner. Zen is not just what happened 10 centuries ago, or right now, but also what is coming in 10 or 100 years from now. Buddha appears in all times and places, not only long ago.

    Our Sangha will continue to do all of that, looking for --ALL-- the good ways, honoring each and all good ways if helpful in rescuing the suffering children and all struggling people, reducing violence, war, poverty and other ugliness in this world.

    Please allow me to talk about it a little more here:


    Gassho, Jundo

    stlah
    Last edited by Jundo; 05-11-2023, 02:53 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
  • Huichan
    Member
    • Jan 2022
    • 226

    #2
    I don't necessarily have anything against the technological, scientific and medical development you are mentioning or find them scary (I'm surprised that anyone would really find what you're saying is scary atually). However, there are issues with the recent conversations and writings I've seen. I'll try be brief and as coherent as I can with these. This is in no way an attempt to change anyone's mind on any of this and is just some things I've been pondering over the last few months as I've dipped in and out of the forum (I know I've not been interacting as much as before over the last couple of months). I know much of this has been mentioned before and am not trying to bring up any sort of argument or debate but just wanted to add my thoughts, whether they are 'wrong' or 'right'.

    I don't think we're at any special point in time where we suddenly need to start thinking about these issues more than before. There has been constant change and technological, scientific and medical development since the dawn of mankind. There have been many radical shifts in society because of this and maybe we are at a particular one now and maybe change is coming faster than before but I can't see it being anything too unusual. It feels more like there has been something developing in you (Jundo), where you've had some sort of realisation that 'Buddhism' needs to take these developments more seriously and others haven't had this realisation (yet?). That's not necessarily a 'good' or 'bad' thing but just how I percieve the situation.

    The vast majority of us are not in much of a position to have any effect on most of these changes that will come or are already happening. Even collectively as a sangha, I don't think we have much impact on these (although that should never be an excuse not to try if we think it's important enough!). Yes, there are some who can some impact in some fields relating to these and they should use their Buddhist practice to effect these as positively as possible but then they should always be doing that anyway not just because the sangha has decided it's trying to have an impact on technological, scientific and medical development now. Also, we should all be trying to use our practice to have a positive influence in whatever field we are involved in for our everyday lives even if it's nothing to do with these areas (although most are connnected in some way or another, obviously). I am constantly looking to my practice to be a better school teacher for example and any changes that occur within the education sector generally or the particular areas I specialise in.

    Partly related to the last point, most of can't truly understand many of these changes because we don't have sufficient knowledge about them (my A Level in Human Biology isn't good enough to understand editing genes), either in how they specifically work or how they will affect society. If we don't understand them properly then what gives us the right to try direct how they are used? I suppose even those who invent or discover these developments could never know how they will really affect society either, due to the numerous factors that will affect them from a political, economic, cultural etc perspective. There have been many instances throughout history where people think they are bringing something new into society to genuinely help people but not all have agreed that it was so good or it started of well but then was used in a different way to what was intended and has been extremely harmful.

    A massive part of Buddhism is based around the present moment. Yes, we study the history. Yes, we're trying to make a better future. But it seems this is looking too much at the future? It's almost like we're trying to pre-empt what will happen so we can put ourselves in a position to make it more Buddhist or something. I thought the practice is supposed to help use deal with how things are now and have an acceptance of them? Then try use our developed practice to help us help others in the best way we can to fit the circumstances where that is directly or indirectly 'dharma?

    I have absolutely no problem with any of these ideas being discussed at Treeleaf and I know there threads about many things related to this general area before the proposed new direction of the sangha to include this more. I think what makes many uncomfortable is that the sangha is now being used to push these ideas, even though almost nobody sign up to be part of a sangha like that. We mostly just wanted to practice Zen but didn't have a physical Zendo to join near us and Treeleaf offered us a wonderful opportunity to develop our practice. If some also want to talk about what may or may not happen in the future or any cutting edge discoveries, then great but I'm not sure it should be the core of the sangha. I think before you compared it to Tonglen practice but Tonglen has never tried to be the core of what we do, it's just an optional extra that some want to do on top of sitting and studying the dharma.

    I also want to be honest that, even though my inactivity here has not been caused by what you're talking about, the atmosphere on many of the discussions around this have made it easier to be less active here. I hope this point is taken in the way I mean it in that it's not a criticism of anyone at all.

    I've ended up writing more than I meant to (and still not expressed my ideas fully) and I really appreciate you making these videos to personalise your views that you can't really get on a forum post. Just want to say again, I'm not trying to debate any points that have been made but just adding my perception to the situation.


    Ross
    stlah
    Last edited by Huichan; 05-11-2023, 03:26 AM.
    慧禅 | Huìchán | Ross

    Comment

    • Jundo
      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
      • Apr 2006
      • 40288

      #3
      Hi Ross,

      I just want to assure you that talk about tomorrow is not "the core" of Treeleaf. Treeleaf is still Treeleaf, and we are still doing all the same things that we did 1 year or 5 years ago, no change. This is just an additional thing.

      And the point of my talk is that nobody need sign on for anything. I wrote above ...

      Not everyone has to be interested in such topics, and at Treeleaf, it is fine for someone to focus on other things. We have something for all walkers of the path, and not everyone needs to be the same. Stay and be you.

      But I do disagree with you that Buddhists, since the time of Buddha, or Zennies of old, only were about being in the "present moment." That is a misunderstanding. We are in the "present moment" even when we are remembering the past during the "present moment," or thinking about tomorrow during the "present moment," or attending to the present in the "present moment." Even your Chinese temple folks needed to plan for their future and hire architects to build that new, amazing Zen hi-rise!

      Gassho, Jundo (writing from the present moment to you, who will read it later, in your present moment.)

      STLAH
      Last edited by Jundo; 05-11-2023, 03:46 AM.
      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

      Comment

      • Kaitan
        Member
        • Mar 2023
        • 542

        #4
        To be honest I like controversy as long as it is discussed in a context of respect and space to listen both parts so I can't think a better place than here where everyone follows a practice that regulates our emotions and are friendly with each other. Maybe is a sensitive topic since a policy must be implemented in order to achieve these technologies and therefore the conversation could become political, that's the issue I can see. I'm quite knew in the forum, but my impression is that these discussions are not the main body of the Sangha. I'm quite bias since I do science for a living, thus, talking about science in a Buddhist forum is surely interesting for me and I hope I get to share some of my works here because that's what science should try to do: approach non-specialized people by means of popular science (divulgation). Carl Sagan said: “We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology.”

        Gassho

        ST

        Bernal
        Last edited by Kaitan; 05-11-2023, 08:09 AM. Reason: misspelled popular
        Kaitan - 界探 - Realm searcher
        Formerly known as "Bernal"

        Comment

        • Jundo
          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
          • Apr 2006
          • 40288

          #5
          I hope I get to share some of my works here because that's what science should try to do: approach non-specialized people by means of popular science (divulgation).
          Oh, please do!

          Gassho, Jundo

          stlah
          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

          Comment

          • Huichan
            Member
            • Jan 2022
            • 226

            #6
            Originally posted by Jundo
            Hi Ross,

            I just want to assure you that talk about tomorrow is not "the core" of Treeleaf. Treeleaf is still Treeleaf, and we are still doing all the same things that we did 1 year or 5 years ago, no change. This is just an additional thing.

            And the point of my talk is that nobody need sign on for anything. I wrote above ...

            Not everyone has to be interested in such topics, and at Treeleaf, it is fine for someone to focus on other things. We have something for all walkers of the path, and not everyone needs to be the same. Stay and be you.

            But I do disagree with you that Buddhists, since the time of Buddha, or Zennies of old, only were about being in the "present moment." That is a misunderstanding. We are in the "present moment" even when we are remembering the past during the "present moment," or thinking about tomorrow during the "present moment," or attending to the present in the "present moment." Even your Chinese temple folks needed to plan for their future and hire architects to build that new, amazing Zen hi-rise!

            Gassho, Jundo (writing from the present moment to you, who will read it later, in your present moment.)

            STLAH
            Thanks for your response
            慧禅 | Huìchán | Ross

            Comment

            • JohnS

              #7
              I have noticed the uptick in focus on the future. Why, I am not certain. Whatever the reason Teacher is doing so, I agree, if it isn't your cup of Zen tea, just move past it. That's what I do. I would, however, like to see more teachings of the ancient ways. There is much merit in these time tested ways. Not everything about modernism is good.

              Gassho,

              John

              SatToday

              Comment

              • Bion
                Treeleaf Unsui
                • Aug 2020
                • 4520

                #8
                Originally posted by JohnS
                I have noticed the uptick in focus on the future. Why, I am not certain. Whatever the reason Teacher is doing so, I agree, if it isn't your cup of Zen tea, just move past it. That's what I do. I would, however, like to see more teachings of the ancient ways. There is much merit in these time tested ways. Not everything about modernism is good.

                Gassho,

                John

                SatToday
                Well during last Zazenkai, we finished the Shinjinmei, and that is pretty ancient way [emoji1] Sekishi had lovely things to say about very traditional ways also during our Ryaku Fusatsu.. Point being: there’s something for everyone, and a lot of it is not just on the forum in written form! [emoji3526]

                [emoji1374] Sat Today
                "Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - Hongzhi

                Comment

                • Jundo
                  Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                  • Apr 2006
                  • 40288

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Bion
                  Well during last Zazenkai, we finished the Shinjinmei, and that is pretty ancient way [emoji1] Sekishi had lovely things to say about very traditional ways also during our Ryaku Fusatsu.. Point being: there’s something for everyone, and a lot of it is not just on the forum in written form! [emoji3526]

                  [emoji1374] Sat Today
                  I was gonna say, Shinjinmei, likely 7th century authorship. Not old and ancient enough for ya?

                  Please give it a listen.

                  Hello, all We are kicking off 2023 with a new series of podcasts based on our Monthly Zazenkai dharma talks, this time focusing on the Xinxinming (in Chinese) or the Shinjinmei (in Japanese), said to be written by the 3rd. Zen Ancestor in China, Jianzhi Sengcan (鑑智僧璨; Kanchi Sōsan in


                  This week we also got into the Five Hindrances (please have no doubt about that) ...

                  . Our Zen of Everything Podcast continues its reverently irreverent look at the basic history and teachings of Buddhism and Zen, for both newcomers and fellow 'old Zen fools.' This week: Episode 99: Buddha Basics 14: The Five Hindrances https://www.zen-of-everything.com/99 And though our Zen way is


                  And Dharmakhaya ... literally so old it is timeless ...

                  From my book ... ~ ~ ~ Many Buddhists have come to taste that there is an aspect to our existence by which we can intimately identify our “self” as this whole world itself, and our self as flowing time and all other things of the world too, not merely limited to this circumscribed “me, myself, and I”


                  Plus Refuge in the Buddha ...
                  Hi everyone, I've started to really investigate what the refuges mean. What are they in our daily lives, in our ordinary mind? What does the first refuge mean to you? How does it play out in your life?


                  So, the oldies but goldies are certainly not neglected.

                  Gassho, J

                  stlah
                  ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                  Comment

                  • Geika
                    Treeleaf Unsui
                    • Jan 2010
                    • 4983

                    #10
                    Ross,

                    Most of what you wrote also reflect my own feelings on the subject.

                    The speculative nature of some of the writing is not my cup of tea, nor does it really spark my interest.

                    I know Jundo said that we are always in the moment, even when we do not feel we are, and yes, that is technically true. However, for myself and the way I feel as I move through my daily life, it helps greatly to at least attempt to stay present as a practice.


                    stlah
                    求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
                    I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

                    Comment

                    • Mokuso
                      Member
                      • Mar 2020
                      • 159

                      #11
                      Hi Jundo! I agree with your text. zen must and should look around the corner. Looking forward makes you develop. And Zen has evolved. I wonder what Dogen would have said if he hade knew that in the future it will be able to practice through the internet. He had certainly expressed his concern and uncertainty and that could be interpreted as a fear to develop and innovate. by that I mean that people has always been afraid to look around the corner and then look ahead. I think you can both; live in the present and look around the corner and ahead. the present is now. forward is more long-term.

                      I consider it a sign of freshness to think about the future. And what aids we can develop and create for goodness. but I do not believe that any miracle will be created during my lifetime. but I hope.
                      we must not forget that we should not create away everything except goodness and love. because then can’t we not know what real goodness and love are. there must always be a slight opposite. or there is no need for an opposite, maybe it is just my thought that makes me think that it would be needed.
                      but if you were to drop a love bomb, something will be destroyed. nature, animals, buildings or people. something that falls from a height damages something. we probably can't research the law of gravity away.[leende]

                      Gassho . Sattoday.
                      Mokuso
                      Last edited by Mokuso; 05-11-2023, 10:53 PM.

                      Comment

                      • Jundo
                        Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                        • Apr 2006
                        • 40288

                        #12
                        but if you were to drop a love bomb, something will be destroyed. nature, animals, buildings or people. something that falls from a height damages something. we probably can't research the law of gravity away.
                        I am sure that they could put wings and a propeller on it or something to let it land gently. We would not want it landing accidently on a puppy or on someone's flower garden.

                        Alas, the bombs today are the ones that kill puppies and flowers, babies and someone's daddy.

                        Gassho, Jundo

                        stlah
                        ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                        Comment

                        • Jundo
                          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                          • Apr 2006
                          • 40288

                          #13

                          For those who want something traditional, we definitely have that as part of our Treeleaf Zazenkai tomorrow, Friday ...

                          Treeleaf Weekly Zazenkai - Abhaya? Varada? Kannon? Miroku (Maitreya)?
                          https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...%28Maitreya%29

                          ... please be sure to join in then or any time after ...

                          Our Zendo in Tsukuba has been gifted with a statue
                          which seems to be based on this 1200 year old national treasure ...
                          but there is some mystery to it.
                          Also, the posture and hand Mudra are filled with meaning ...

                          [ATTACH=CONFIG]8409[/ATTACH]
                          https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...l=1#post324030

                          But we will also be dancing a wonderful J-Pops version of the Heart Sutra/Hannya Shingyo as part of our Ceremony, so that is something modern and now ...


                          Our Zendo in Tsukuba has been gifted with a statue which seems to be based on this 1200 year old national treasure ... but there is some mystery to it. Also, the posture and hand Mudra are filled with meaning ... (see below in this thread for details) Also, note that we will be dancing our Heart Sutra/Hannya


                          While, at the same time, purely by Koincidence or Karma, our gifted new Buddha Statue is ...

                          Maitreya ... the next "Future Buddha" that I speak about in the Sangha recently. So, it is very nice that we may now have Maitreya in our Zendo for the first time, and that this Future Buddha is also somehow filled with Kannon's great Compassion to rescue all the suffering beings. Very meaningful to me.
                          Plus, of course, Zazen is simply TIMELESS!

                          So, everything comes together nicely, you see.

                          Gassho, J

                          stlah
                          Attached Files
                          Last edited by Jundo; 05-12-2023, 04:33 AM.
                          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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                          • Rich
                            Member
                            • Apr 2009
                            • 2614

                            #14
                            Being on the cutting edge of creating the future i find some of your futuristic discussions interesting.

                            Sat-lah


                            Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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                            Rich
                            MUHYO
                            無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

                            https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

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