Its Moving!!!

[JayPhi]

I have struggled for years with the same issue. Then after speaking with a Theravadin some time ago he gave me this advice. 'It is better to sit than to not, no matter how you do it. Remember it is called the middle way study and meditation and community all in equal measure. But dont spend too much time deciphering where one starts and the other ends. All three are intertwined. And for goodness sake just stop and sit and breath.'

So that is what I have done. I found a community, I sit and we all share here and study and learn. Seems to be working or so I think. I hope you find a settling of your unease. For I know the feeling well. But then again what is a feeling? They rise and then they drift away. Hmmm. Food for thought.

All the best.
Gassho,
Jason

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[JayPhi]

I really like Kaishin's comment. Could not agree more!

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[Jundo]

Tony,

What's so important about being a "proper Buddhist?" There's no such thing! It's all made up!

Do you want to be a "good Buddhist" or do you want to clarify your life?

Every sect has the true teaching while simultaneously disagreeing with everyone else ;-)

This is so very wise. Do not worry what others say, do not worry what labels one sticks on things. Do not even worry at a certain point what the Buddha would say or your mother. Make this real in your life.

By the way, I sometimes say this when the topic comes up ...

[O]ne thing for folks to remember is that Buddhism did change and evolve over many centuries, as it passed from culture to culture in Asia. The Buddha lived 2500 years ago in ancient India, whereupon the philosophy passed to China 1000 years later, and then to someone like Master Dogen who lived about 1000 years after that in medieval Japan. You and I live in the strange world known as the 21st century. Certainly, some changes arose along the way in some important interpretations and outer forms. For example, the Chinese made Zen Practice very Chinese, the Japanese very medieval Japanese, and now we are making it very Western.

However, the Heart of the Buddha's teachings ... the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path, Non-Self, Non-Attachment, the Middle Way, etc. etc., ... All are here now as much as there then!!

How?

On the one hand some outer stuff is, well, changed. For example, when Buddhism came to China it was heavily influenced by, and pretty much merged with, Taoism (not to mention that it was already "Mahayana Buddhism" by that time, a very different flavor from the original). The result was this little thing we now call "Zen Buddhism". So, congratulations, we are already "Taoists" and "Mahayana Buddhists" ... not just "Buddhists". (In fact, the Mahayanists made a habit of 'putting down' the earlier teachings of the Suttas as the Hinayana 'lesser vehicle', though taking pains to explain that the Buddha meant the Suttas as 'remedial' teachings for spiritual slow pokes!) When it got to Japan, the Japanese added Japanese culture to it. In the West, we are now making some very good changes (although we have to, of course, try to avoid bad changes). These good changes include equality of the sexes and a greater emphasis on lay practice.

But it is still Buddhism. What Dogen taught was Buddhism. What we do around Treeleaf (I do believe) is as Buddhism as Buddhism can be.

I will even go so far as to say (and this is the kind of statement that has gotten me into all kinds of trouble on with some folks in Buddhism's own fundamentalist quarters) that maybe, just maybe, later Buddhism actually made some big and important "improvements" to the Buddha's original formulation with all those additions, and a couple of thousand years of working out the kinks and bugs (Actually, that is what the Mahayanists always thought about themselves vis-a-vis the 'lesser vehicle'). It is much like saying that Buddha was Henry Ford, who first thought up the brilliant idea of sticking 4 wheels on an internal combustion engine, but now we can drive a Prius! I even say that maybe, just maybe, the Buddha was not infallible on every darn thing. Not on the vital heart of the teachings, mind you. But while he was 90% right in his proposals, he maybe also had some klunkers and narrow ideas here and there (as fits a man who lived in a traditional, myth based society some 2500 years ago in ancient India) ... like the whole thing about an overly mechanical view of rebirth, the place of women, the need to abandon the world and family in order to Practice and to repress or extinquish (as opposed to moderate & balance & pierce) the desires and emotions, and some other elements of myth and superstition from Indian culture of the times. ... No problem, because the stuff that the Buddha was a genius about is WORTH THE WHOLE PRICE OF ADMISSION!

And Dogen was different from Shakyamuni Buddha, who are both different from all of us!

But when we are sitting a moment of Zazen ... perfectly whole, just complete unto itself, without borders and duration, not long or short, nothing to add or take away, containing all moments and no moments in "this one moment" ... piercing Dukkha, attaining non-self, non-attached ... then there is not the slightest gap between each of us and the Buddha.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Sekishi]

What's so important about being a "proper Buddhist?" There's no such thing! It's all made up!

Do you want to be a "good Buddhist" or do you want to clarify your life?

This, so much this.

Sit. Live the precepts. Sit. Follow the eightfold path. SIT!

I think we talk a lot about practice, because this endeavour is a DOING, not a BEING. To be a "proper Buddhist" is have a story about what would constitute such a person, and then try to emulate that ideal. I believe this totally misses the mark. I see our practice as one of putting down stories and ideals to simply be, fully, honestly, and with open hearts.

Who are you when you drop EVERY idea about who you are?

Gassho,
Sekishi

#sattoday

[Sekishi]

Hi Tony,

I have another thought for you, which may help, or it may further confuse things. My apologies in advance.

I need to know what I am doing is valid and a legitimate practice in line with what the Buddha taught - not just Dogen et al.

I enjoy reading from the Suttas, and have a very well loved and dog-eared copy of Bhikku Bodhi's Anthology of Discourses from the Pali Canon. There are some overly technical answers that could be given to your concern, but I'd do a terrible job, and I don't think they would help you anyway!

What I do think is that Shakyamuni Buddha was a pretty pragmatic fellow, and he did not ask his followers to believe in anything they could not test for themselves. In fact he encouraged his students to test his teachings through their own experience.

In the Kalama Sutta, he tells the Kalamas not to simply take anyone's teachings or practices without testing for themselves (this means not the Buddha, not the Sutras, not Dogen, not even Jundo):

Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering' — then you should abandon them.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.065.than.html

Notice that we don't just get to pick and choose or make up our own practices either -- at least not without explicitly testing to find out for ourselves that such practices lead away from those unskillful qualities which lead to suffering.

In the Maha-parinibbana Sutta, as old Shakyamuni was facing the imminent breakdown of his body, he rather famously told Anada and the gathered bhikkhus to be islands unto themselves (or lamps -- depending on the translation) with the Dhamma as their guide:

Therefore, Ananda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html

What I take away from all this is that we must practice practice practice and test the teachings in the crucible of our own lives.

I might be veering into shaky territory here (so I trust Jundo and my elder brothers to correct me - and you should all be sceptical of what I'm about to say), but here it goes... I think it is important to be clear that Zenny expressions like "Zazen is good for nothing", and "nothing to attain" do not say that Zazen will not change your life. Zazen has absolutely changed my life. But it is not transactional. I do not sit down to attain something, or uncover some truth, or to become something "other". I do not ask anything of Zazen. I sit because I sit. I sit because running around like an insane person with my head on fire is also good for nothing. Sitting changes me. Eating an apple changes me. Going to bed when I am sleepy changes me.

So sit. Read the Pali Suttas if you'd like. Are they "older" and "closer to the Buddha's teaching"? Maybe so. Read the Mahayana Sutras if you'd like. Are they representative of a larger vehicle that can carry more to the other shore? Maybe so. Read Stephen King if you'd like. Are there really world lines leading to a dark tower? Maybe so. Test what each teaches and see what happens!

But this is all just my opinion. Take it with a grain of salt.

My you discover the "legitimate practice" of the Buddha.

Deep bows,
Sekishi

[Jundo]

Hi Sekishi,

Lovely lovely.

One caution I might offer (as someone who also believes that one should test all this in one's own life, where the Dharma rubber meets the road) ...

... is on the frequent misuse of citations of the Kalama Sutta and its " don't go by by traditions, by scripture ... by teachers" language. I love the sentiment myself, but it is quite clear to scholars (and anyone who reads the whole thing) that the Buddha was actually saying something like "... except for what I teach. You should believe that. " Likewise in the Maha-parinibbana Sutta when the Buddha says "be a lamp unto oneself. The actual words are ...

"Therefore, Ananda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge.

So, be sure to follow the Dhamma, the Buddha's Teachings.

That being said, I do believe that this is a "proof is in the pudding Practice." I sometimes say that, I really don't care at this point what exactly Buddha or Dogen's opinions would be ... it has revolutionized my life for 30 years, saved my life and brought treasure. I am gonna keep it, and I gladly recommend this Path to others.

... and anyway, there is no doubt that what we Practice is Buddhism, in keeping with the basics of what the Buddha, Dogen and all the Ancestors taught.

As Master Rinzai (Linji) taught ...

Linji said:
If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha, if you meet the [Buddhist] ancestors, kill the ancestors, if you meet an Arhat, kill the Arhat, if you meet your parents, kill your parents, in this way, you attain liberation.

What does this mean? Was he actually recommending something as profane as murdering a Buddha or any being? Of course not. So, what does it mean? Sit and find out.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jishin]

Bang! Killed Jundo. 🥊[emoji3]

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

Falls over dead.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Sekishi]

What should we do if we meet the Jishin?

Such silly,
Sekishi

#sattoday


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[Tairin]

I might be veering into shaky territory here (so I trust Jundo and my elder brothers to correct me - and you should all be sceptical of what I'm about to say), but here it goes... I think it is important to be clear that Zenny expressions like "Zazen is good for nothing", and "nothing to attain" do not say that Zazen will not change your life. Zazen has absolutely changed my life. But it is not transactional. I do not sit down to attain something, or uncover some truth, or to become something "other". I do not ask anything of Zazen. I sit because I sit. I sit because running around like an insane person with my head on fire is also good for nothing. Sitting changes me. Eating an apple changes me. Going to bed when I am sleepy changes me.

Hi Sekishi

I really like this especially the part I bolded about not being transactional. To me this is the challenge with Zazen. It isn't a question of "if I do this I get that". Sometimes when my resistance to sitting is higher I say to myself "You should sit". My resistant self says "Why? What's to be gained?" I have no answer for that except that there is nothing to be gained but I should sit anyway.

Gassho
Warren
Sat today

[Seishin]

What should we do if we meet the Jishin?

Such silly,
Sekishi

#sattoday


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Bow Sit Bow - Simples.

[dharmasponge]

Hi and thanks everyone for such helpful and comprehensive replies. I've not had a chance to read through them all yet, but I will.

I rarely post now as I can't see much to be gained from the philosophical speculation that I have been so involved with in the past. But I do lurk.

It's true I have much to learn and re learn...I never think any of us stop learning though. Maybe I need to recapitulate the last 20 years exposure to all the various traditions I have learned so much from.

Tony...

[Jishin]

You are perfect as you are Tony.

My one cent.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Mp]

It's true I have much to learn

Don't we all ... we never stop learning. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Kyonin]

It's true I have much to learn and re learn...I never think any of us stop learning though. Maybe I need to recapitulate the last 20 years exposure to all the various traditions I have learned so much from.

Hey, just go make a nice cup of hot chocolate. Enjoy it without judgment. You haven't learned anything at all because you got born just now.

Then go do something nice for another person. Repeat until the I is replaced by Us.

Gassho,

Kyonin