Satipatthana Sutta, Theravada Suttas and Mahayana followers, development into Zen

[Kyosei]

Hi friends

Reading a book called "Buddhism for Dummies" there is a part in which they cite a "Pali Cannon" Sutta, called "Satipatthana Sutta" (Sutta on the "four foundations of mindfulness");

I searched for this Sutta and found a version in portuguese on a website called "Access to Insight.org"; reading (part of) it, I found the method the Buddha underlines to focus the attention similar to one I've read before on a little book I liked too much before I came to "know" Zen, entitled "The Essence of Buddhist Meditation", by a Bikkhu Mangalo.

Basically focusing attention in whatever one's doing, all the time, without giving space to the mind to wander.

What is the relation between Shikantaza and this "Sutta"? what are the elements of practice in Soto Zenshu style related to that "Sutta", besides Zazen? what practices did it inspired in Zen?

As they tell the Pali Cannon is the oldest buddhist scripture, its easy to thinks it's almost authentic, coming directly from the historic Buddha. Should we, Mahayana followers, study any of those Suttas?

[Jundo]

Hi Marcos,

There is actually some question about whether the Pali/South Asian/Theravada Suttas are truly "earlier" than many of the Sanskrit/North Asian/Mahayana Sutras and commentaries. In fact, many of the former were written down later, or continued to develop in later centuries. What is now known as the "Theravada" flavor of Buddhism, as now found in places like Thailand, Burma and Sri Lanka, is itself largely a relatively recent reinterpretation of the old texts and practices, in many cases in quite recent centuries. One might say that the two Traditions actually developed along parallel courses, much like Catholicism and Protestantism. Although there is debate on how reliable the Pali Suttas actually are as reflections of early Buddhism, historian Gregory Schopen writes ...

We know, and have known for some time, that the Pali canon as we have it -- and it is generally conceded to be our oldest source -- cannot be taken back further than the last quarter of the first century B.C.E, the date of the Alu-vihara redaction, the earliest redaction that we can have some knowledge of, and that -- for a critical history -- it can serve, at the very most, only as a source for the Buddhism of this period. But we also know that even this is problematic since, as Malalasekera has pointed out: "...how far the Tipiṭaka and its commentaries reduced to writing at Alu-vihara resembled them as they have come down to us now, no one can say." In fact, it is not until the time of the commentaries of Buddhaghosa, Dhammapala, and others -- that is to say, the fifth to sixth centuries C.E. -- that we can know anything definite about the actual contents of this canon. ...

Schopen, Gregory. 1997, Bones, Stones and Buddhist Monks. Collected Papers on the Archaeology, Epigraphy, and Texts of Monastic Buddhism in India. University of Hawaii Press.

Those are pretty much the same centuries when the Mahayana began to develop.

Some religious folks and other historians try to make a case otherwise for the reliability of the Pali texts as historically accurate, although I find their case rather doubtful (about the same as debating which of the many and conflicting stories in the New Testament are historically accurate, and which later embellishments). An excellent summary of the issues I recommend to you is this posting by Buddhist historian and practitioner Jayarava ...

Scholars in favour of seeing this body of literature as "authentic" (a word we'll have to come back to and define) tend to portray the literature as fairly homogeneous and belonging to a specific region in space and time. They tend to accept the story told by the literature about it's own genesis. I find the reasons for doing so less and less convincing the more I read the literature. ... My own recent work has been focussed on cracks in the facade of homogeneity and unanimity presented by many scholars. In particular I've tried to show that the idea that the Pali Canon represents a single tradition is not sustainable. The Pali texts are clearly collated from multiple oral lineages that have been inexpertly edited into several collections (nikāyas). Supposedly fundamental doctrines show a bewildering amount of diversity in the suttas. Details are often fudged or changed. And the approach to this by scholars has been to compose unifying narratives that gloss over internal inconsistency or try to demonstrate a linear development within the texts. I think this methodology is flawed from the start.

...

Thus the suttas are at best an ambiguous source of information. Sometimes consistent with an early period centred on the 5th century BCE and yet at other times with a period some centuries after this. Many details of history found in the Canon are also contradicted in the Canon. This lack of internal consistency is not simply overlooked or explained away, it is presented as the opposite, as strikingly self-consistent. For the average Buddhist, almost inevitably falling into confirmation bias, the endorsement of their views by scholars of considerable reputation makes it all the harder to objectively evaluate the information at our disposal.

The situation is probably that the suttas do not represent one period of history, but were composed over several centuries and that earlier texts form a template for later texts. Everything we know about later Buddhist texts, such as the Perfection of Wisdom texts, tells us that Indian Buddhists never stopped retelling and embellishing their stories.

http://jayarava.blogspot.jp/2015/02/...t-history.html

Anyway, to get to your main question on the Satipatthana Sutta

Basically focusing attention in whatever one's doing, all the time, without giving space to the mind to wander.

What is the relation between Shikantaza and this "Sutta"? what are the elements of practice in Soto Zenshu style related to that "Sutta", besides Zazen? what practices did it inspired in Zen?

Throughout Buddhism, there are a variety of forms of meditation taught emphasizing different perspectives and approaches. The Satipatthana recommends practices such as this ...

And further, monks, a monk knows, when he is going, "I am going"; he knows, when he is standing, "I am standing"; he knows, when he is sitting, "I am sitting"; he knows, when he is lying down, "I am lying down"; or just as his body is disposed so he knows it.

Thus he lives contemplating the body in the body internally, or he lives contemplating the body in the body externally, or he lives contemplating the body in the body internally and externally. He lives contemplating origination factors in the body, or he lives contemplating dissolution factors in the body, or he lives contemplating origination-and-dissolution factors in the body.[10] Or his mindfulness is established with the thought: "The body exists," to the extent necessary just for knowledge and mindfulness, and he lives detached, and clings to nothing in the world. Thus also, monks, a monk lives contemplating the body in the body.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/a...019.html#found

Now, the original intent of this practice has been discussed by historian David L. McMahan in his recent, brilliant work "The Making of Buddhist Modernism". Unlike many in the modern "mindfulness" movement who recharacterize the teaching as "loving attentiveness, the openness and communion with all things", the original intent was to encourage a certain revulsion toward and detachment from the world. This is more clearly seen in one of the immediately following sections of that Satipatthana ...

And further, monks, a monk reflects on this very body enveloped by the skin and full of manifold impurity, from the soles up, and from the top of the head-hairs down, thinking thus: "There are in this body hair of the head, hair of the body, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, marrow, kidney, heart, liver, midriff, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, grease, saliva, nasal mucus, synovial fluid, urine." ... Just so, monks, a monk reflects on this very body enveloped by the skin and full of manifold impurity, from the soles up, and from the top of the head-hairs down, thinking thus: "There are in this body hair of the head, hair of the body, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, marrow, kidney, heart, liver, midriff, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, grease, saliva, nasal mucus, synovial fluid, urine."

...

And further, monks, as if a monk sees a body dead one, two, or three days; swollen, blue and festering, thrown in the charnel ground, he then applies this perception to his own body thus: "Verily, also my own body is of the same nature; such it will become and will not escape it." ... And further, monks, as if a monk sees a body thrown in the charnel ground and reduced to a skeleton with some flesh and blood attached to it, held together by the tendons ... And further, monks, as if a monk sees a body thrown in the charnel ground and reduced to a skeleton blood-besmeared and without flesh, held together by the tendons... his mindfulness is established with the thought: "The body exists," to the extent necessary just for knowledge and mindfulness, and he lives detached, and clings to nothing in the world.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/a.../wheel019.html

If you search the words "prosaic" and "profound" and find page 233 here, it talks a little about the original intent of the Satipatthana Sutta.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0195183274/ref=s9_simh_se_p14_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=auto-no-results-center-1&pf_rd_r=A96D71447A3B4ED5922C&pf_rd_t=301&pf_rd_p=1263465782&pf_rd_i=0199720290

Thich Nhat Hanh has a book in which he expresses the Satipatthana in his own, more gentle way, with a greater emphasis on "just being present" and positive emotions (he rather skips over the bowels and bones) ... a much more Mahayana influenced, sweet, positive "in the world" twist on this Sutta ...

With the fifth exercise we come to the realm of feelings. We bring in a feeling of joy. We cultivate and recognize joy within us. With the sixth exercise we bring in happiness. The practitioner knows that mindfulness is a source of happiness. Mindfulness helps us to recognize the many conditions of happiness we already have So to bring in a feeling of joy, to bring in a feeling of happiness, is easy. You can do it any time. ... The seventh exercise is to be aware of painful feelings. When a painful feeling or emotion manifests, the practitioner should be able to be present in order to take care of it. With mindfulness, she will know how to recognize and embrace the pain, the sorrow, to get relief. She can go further with other exercises in order to transform, but now she’s only recognizing and embracing. Recognizing and embracing tenderly the feeling of pain and sorrow can already bring relief. The eighth exercise is to release the tension, to calm the feeling. So the second set of four exercises is to deal with feelings. The practitioner should know how to recognize her feelings, and know how to embrace and deal with her feelings, whether they are pleasant or unpleasant

...

Suppose you and your husband disagree about something. You are angry and are about to have a fight. Suffering is in you, suffering is in him, and the mind is not free. To free yourselves from anger, you need concentration. Let us try the concentration on impermanence. You close your eyes. “Breathing in, I visualize my beloved one 300 years from now. What will he become in 300 years? What will I become in 300 years?” You can touch the reality of impermanence. “We have a limited time together, and we are wasting it with our anger, with our discrimination. That’s not very intelligent.” When you visualize both of you 300 years from now, you touch the nature of impermanence and you see how unwise you are to hold on to your anger. It may take only one in-breath or one out-breath to touch the nature of impermanence in you and in him. With that insight of impermanence you are free from your anger. “Breathing in, I know I am still alive and he is still alive.” When you open your eyes, the only thing you want to do is to take him into your arms.

...

The fifteenth exercise is contemplating nirvana. This is real concentration. This concentration can help us touch the deep wisdom, the nature of reality that will be able to liberate us from fear and anger and despair. In Buddhism the word nirvana means extinction. Nirvana is not a place you can go. Nirvana is not in the future. Nirvana is the
nature of reality as it is. Nirvana is available in the here and the now. You are in nirvana. It’s like a wave arising on the surface of the ocean. A wave is made of water, but sometimes she forgets. A wave is supposed to have a beginning, an end. A coming up, a going down. A wave can be higher or lower than other waves, more beautiful or less beautiful than other waves. And if the wave is caught by these notions—beginning, ending, coming up, going down, more or less beautiful—she will suffer a lot. But if the wave realizes she is water, she enjoys going up, and she enjoys going down. She enjoys being this wave, and she enjoys being the other wave. No discrimination, no fear at all. And she doesn’t have to go and look for water; she is water in the present moment.

http://www.mindfulnessbell.org/articles/mb53.pdf

http://www.amazon.com/Transformation-Healing-Sutra-Establishments-Mindfulness/dp/1888375620

I am not sure if that is the original flavor of the Sutta, and perhaps a bit sweet sometimes, but it is very nice too.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Jundo]

Oh, and PS ...

I sometimes post the following on what I believe is an important misunderstanding on this word "mindfulness" ...

Being mindful of 'mindful'

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7910-Being-mindful-of-mindful

and

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7910-Being-mindful-of-mindful&p=90483&viewfull=1#post90483

t seems to me that many people in Zen Practice have come to confuse "being present/mindful in the moment" (for example, "when drinking tea, just drink tea" ... a sometimes appropriate and lovely way to experience life) ... with "being at one with the moment" (allowing and merging with conditions of life "just as they are"). The two are not quite the same, and are often confused, and the latter is much more at the heart of this Shikantaza Path ...

Yes, I believe that there are times to be "mindful" ... and there are times not. Sometimes when I eat, I just eat ... when I sip tea, I just sip tea ... when bowing, just bowing ... fully absorbed in that action. A wonderful, insightful practice. When doing one thing, just do one thing with all one's body-and-mind.

At other times, I just grab a sandwich and a coke while reading the newspaper and thinking about the job I have to do. That's life too. Nothing wrong with it.

...

So, for example, when drinking tea, just do that and fully allow that. When grabbing a sandwich while reading the paper and thinking about your annoying co-worker in the office, just do that and fully allow that (and fully allow the craziness in the newspaper and your annoying co-worker too).** When your kid plops in your lap during tea drinking and the cup spills all over the table, just do and allow that. ... When temporarily falling into sadness or anger, just do and allow that (although remember that "mind theatre" and see if you truly need to be that way, and seek to be not that way if you can). When overwrought with life for a moment, just do that and fully allow that (remembering in the back of your mind that the clear, boundless blue sky is behind the clouds of thought and emotion even when momentarily covered over). When suffering with old age and sickness of ourself or someone we love, even death, just do that and fully allow that.

In my view, all of the above together is truly balanced, "mindful" living. That is "being the moment".

...

Folks encounter lots of Zen teachings like "when you eat, just eat. When you sleep just sleep..." But those Zenny words can sound rather idealistic if they imply that we must be "mindful" or in "Zen Mind" 24/7. (Don't misunderstand me, I think it a good power ... and it is just the "24/7" I am protesting). My view is more balanced I believe, namely, that "when mindful of one thing, just be mindful of one thing ... when distracted, overwrought and multi-tasking, just be distracted, overwrought and multi-task". There is a time for everything, and we cannot be "mindful" each minute. All of it is life. (If one ever visits a large Zen monastery, you might be surprised at how hectic things can get ... guests visiting, phones to answer, ceremonies to arrange, robes to clean, bills to pay and food orders to make ... it is quite like any business office in the administrative office of the monastery).

However, one of the great fruits of our Zen Practice is that, even when we are distracted, overwrought and multi-tasking, feeling completely rushed and off balance ... and even when "Zen Mind" feels very far away ... we can still know it is 'there' even if we do not feel it at that moment [the blue sky always behind the clouds even on cloudy days]. So I say, when feeling completely "rushed and off balance", just be "rushed and off balance" in that moment ... it too is a temporary state of mind.

...

We cannot always live feeling "in the moment" or just do one task at one time with our total being. There is a time for feeling in the moment, but we need not feel "in the moment" every moment (or, better said, every moment is always "in the moment" whether we feel in the moment or not ... and one is truly "in the moment" even when not feeling so). If you can feel at home with each moment, even moments when you do not feel at home in the moment as well as those when you do ... that is truly being "at one with the moment", thus truly "in the moment". That is the way of "in the moment, whatever is that moment" that I tend to teach and emphasize around here.

Gassho, J

SatToday, did other things today, "In The Moment" the whole timeless time.

[Kyonin]

Thank you Marcos for posting the question.

Thank you Jundo for the answer. The Making of Buddhist Modernism is now in my to-buy list.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Kaishin]

Wonderful (and incredibly detailed) follow-up info, Jundo. Fascinating stuff. I think it's easy when following any path to start questioning, "is this legit? Am I in the "right" path?" I always recall a statement by...someone (I think it was Steve Hagen, but not sure)... who, when asked, "how do you know Zen is a correct interpretation of what the Buddha really taught?" His answer was something like, "Do you want to be a "proper" Buddhist, or do you want to live?"

-satToday

[Hotetsu]

Wonderful information! Thank you, Jundo!

Gassho

#SatToday

[Kyosei]

Thank you Jundo...

Are any of these Suttas of particular interest for us, Zen students, to read?

[RichardH]

the original intent of this practice has been discussed by historian David L. McMahan in his recent, brilliant work "The Making of Buddhist Modernism"

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Gassho
Daizan

sat today

[Noroshi]

I'm actually reading "Buddhism for Dummies" now as I wanted to learn more about Buddhism's history and just what the other branches believe. It's a good read and makes a lot of big ideas understandable.

[Jundo]

Thank you Jundo...

Are any of these Suttas of particular interest for us, Zen students, to read?

Hi Marcos,

I think that they are all good to read as a study of our history, and any long term student should probably do so at some point. This book is a good anthology by the great Sutta translator Bhikkhu Bodhi, and you will find much diversity as well as much common ground (the footnotes, however, tend to reflect interpretations of these Suttas from a modern Theravadan view which one may not always agree with ... that x actually means y ... but the Suttas themselves are very clear on their own).

In the Buddha's Words: An Anthology of Discourses from the Pali Canon

http://www.amazon.com/Buddhas-Words-Anthology-Discourses-Teachings/dp/0861714911

We had a thread awhile back on the so-called "Greater Vehicle" Mahayana Sutras most cherished in the Zen Traditions. We are a "a special Transmission outside the scriptures, no bound by words and letters", and yet in fact most of the old Zen masters (like Dogen, that walking encyclopedia of Sutra quotes) were familiar with these. I like to say that they burned them only after reading them and learning much by heart.

Of course, the Heart Sutra. That is enough, that is all that is needed, because the Heart Sutra is the Heart of Everything and Nothing.

But, really, it is not enough ... and at some point, long time Zen students may wish to read the Sutras basic to the Zen Way. Even though we are not a "Sutra School", the following are referred to and bounced through by almost all Zen Teachers through the centuries, Dogen no less. I would start with ...

• The Platform Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch by Hui-neng and Philip Yampolsky (not really a "Sutra" by the way, as not the Buddha's Words except to the extent Hui-neng is so valued)

• The Lotus Sutra, Gene Reeves translator (the most readable translation of the wild Mahayana story book), but only after reading the short book "Visions of Awakening Space and Time" by Taigen Dan Leighton

• The Vimalakirti Sutra, translated by Burton Watson. The ultimate story of the "at home" Bodhisattva.

• The Lankavatara Sutra, translated by Red Pine (a wonderful, informative new translation of this Sutra highly valued in early Chan Buddhism. I would recommend this over the much older and rougher translation by Suzuki, although masterful too. There is some debate, however, about how important the Lankavatara really was in Zen Buddhism, because it was supplanted by the time of the 6th Patriarch by the influence of the "Perfection of Wisdom" teachings like the Diamond and Heart Sutras)

• The Diamond Sutra, translated by Red Pine

I might also add the Lion's Roar of Queen Srtmala Sutra, as important to the special place of Lay Practice as the Vimalakirti Sutra.

All of these are on our Treeleaf recommended book/media list ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?5711-SUGGESTED-BOOK-MEDIA-LIST-for-TREELEAF-SANGHA

However, again, I only recommend these for long time students particularly interested in the sources for historical reasons. It is a bit like saying that one can be a Christian without needing to read the whole Bible cover to cover. Anyway, the Sutras (and especially the so-called "Lesser Vehicle" Suttas) are even less central to this "Special Transmission outside the scriptures" Zen way than the Bible to Christians.

I'm actually reading "Buddhism for Dummies" now as I wanted to learn more about Buddhism's history and just what the other branches believe. It's a good read and makes a lot of big ideas understandable.

Hi Noroshi,

I have a couple of other shorter essays, available for download, to help make some sense of all the "Buddhisms" and even all the "Zens" (different Lineages and Teachers have various flavors and approaches, and one might get confused picking up all the "Zen" books that sometimes seem to be saying rather different things) ...

... As I often say, "Same, but sometimes very different. Frequently different, but always precisely the same).

Special reading - eight types of enlightenment

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6567-Special-reading-eight-types-of-enlightenment

Special reading - once born twice born zen (part 1)

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6514-Special-reading-once-born-twice-born-zen-%28part-1%29

Special reading - (more) once born twice born zen
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...twice-born-zen

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Anshu Bryson]

In the Buddha's Words: An Anthology of Discourses from the Pali Canon

http://www.amazon.com/Buddhas-Words-Anthology-Discourses-Teachings/dp/0861714911

I just bought 'In the Buddha's Words' a couple of weeks ago, as I have a Theravada module in my Masters studies in the next semester and wanted to do some 'light reading' (haha!) in preparation. I think it is a good selection of the canon, and quite 'readable' due to the fluency of Bikkhu Bodhi's translations (the suttas can be pretty heavy going if clumsily translated; a little like Dogen...). When I get into that semester proper, I will flag anything I see that might be relevant to this discussion.

Gassho,
Anshu

-sat today-

[Jundo]

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the original intent of this practice has been discussed by historian David L. McMahan in his recent, brilliant work "The Making of Buddhist Modernism"

The book came up on another thread today, as well as another fine book on the topic by the wonderful Donald Lopez. I just want to point to it, and note my comment ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?13449-Buddhism-science&p=154048#post154048

I also agree that traditional Buddhism, including Zen Buddhist schools, contain as much "superstitious nonsense, wishful thinking, and woo-woo", myth and hocus-pocus and hero worship as any other religion. There is no doubt. ... attempts to make Buddhism harmonious with modern science are really a 19th century invention, in large part as a response to competition from the "modern industrial world" and Protestant missionaries who had invaded Asia ...

... But also, some of the "modernizations" to Buddhism are actually quite positive, I feel. I also believe that many of the repackagings and adaptations may actually be strengthenings and improvements (!!) to the Traditions in some ways. Or, better said, they are adaptations for modern times and societies that may work very well there, well older traditions were right for other times and societies. I think many of the changes that happened to Buddhism as it became "Buddhism modernism" and Westernized are keepers! I believe that the greater equality of women, the greater ability of lay folks to access Teachings and actually Practice, and the bringing of modern education and science to traditions sometimes lost in superstition and ignorance are but three examples.

Gassho, Jundo

[Matt]

It seems to me that many people in Zen Practice have come to confuse "being present/mindful in the moment" (for example, "when drinking tea, just drink tea" ... a sometimes appropriate and lovely way to experience life) ... with "being at one with the moment" (allowing and merging with conditions of life "just as they are").

Jundo, thank you for this. I encounter a lot of generic mindfulness teachings online these days (not all of which are bad) and have tried to make sense of how those differ from our practice. This is very helpful.

Deep bows,
Matt
#SatToday

[Noroshi]

Thanks, Jundo. I'll have a look at those this weekend.

Gassho,
Sat today