Art and Suffering

[Kotei]

Thank you for posting the article.

I recently came across a Ted talk from Phil Hansen, called "embrace the shake".
Phil was developing a tremor in his hands and found himself nearly unable to work at his art with it.
Over time, he found his way, developing something new, embracing his limitations.

This is the talk:

https://www.ted.com/talks/phil_hansen_embrace_the_shake

Even if it's not about "suffering", I find some of his aspects in 'limited by rule' art forms, like Haiku.

Maybe not in direct connection to the above, but still about "Art and Suffering".

Gassho,
Ralf

[Stev]

I guess I am just coming from a different place with this.
In a free wealthy society (for some) where we (some of us) have the wealth and time to not only express our creativity but to pontificate on it's importance, where our grasping of things including art creates cities full of unbreathable smog, where the aged are warned not to venture out, (which happened in the UK just a few days ago) that we can celebrate art as being as important, if not more important than oxygen just seems rather cringe making.
But then what is art?
Gunther von Hagens' macabre exhibition http://www.theguardian.com/education...ighereducation



sat today

[Kokuu]

Stev

Do you think that art is something that people do when they have the time and money to pontificate? What about poems written on the battlefield of the Somme and art from wartorn countries? Hard times often produce great art.

The 'as necessary as oxygen' is poetic license. Poets often use metaphor to express strong feelings. Reading poetic words literally will render them easy for criticism. "I wandered lonely as a cloud" Is a cloud lonely? Perhaps focus on where the feeling is coming from than the precise words.

Do you really think that art cannot be appreciated unless everyone has everything they need for a reasonable life? A luxury for the wealthy and idle? What then of protest songs, satire and political cartoons expressing dissatisfaction with the way things are and a desire for change? Art is often at its most vital and important when life is a struggle, not when everything is good.

Your view of art as a luxury for the wealthy seems very out of step with what I know of art and artists. For me, art is something that people feel compelled to do rather than an activity of leisure after everything else has been done. Of course there will always be people for whom it is little more than a pleasurable hobby but to paint all of art like that does not resonate with my experience at all.

Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday

[RichardH]

One of my favorite early modernist artists was George Grosz. He was active during the Weimar period, and painted the hellish conditions in Germany after the first world war. This was precisely the kind of art the nazis wanted to destroy and replace with neo-classical kitsch. Looking at it, it looks like suffering and despair, but in that line in that expression of darkness, there is joy, right in the line. It may be anguished on one level, but it is creative flight.

Gassho
Daizan

sat today




http://images.tate.org.uk/sites/defa...?itok=UFeJipuZ

[Stev]

Hmmm

"Do you think that art is something that people do when they have the time and money to pontificate? "

Nope, that is not what I said.

" What about poems written on the battlefield of the Somme and art from wartorn countries? Hard times often produce great art."

So Banksy goes to the West Bank to do some protest art which by all accounts, where possible, is dismantled and shipped to the US for sale.

"The 'as necessary as oxygen' is poetic license. Poets often use metaphor to express strong feelings. Reading poetic words literally will render them easy for criticism. "I wandered lonely as a cloud" Is a cloud lonely? Perhaps focus on where the feeling is coming from than the precise words. "

Yes that is my whole point, I am focusing on the feeling of the self importance of the artist.

"Do you really think that art cannot be appreciated unless everyone has everything they need for a reasonable life? A luxury for the wealthy and idle? What then of protest songs, satire and political cartoons expressing dissatisfaction with the way things are and a desire for change? Art is often at its most vital and important when life is a struggle, not when everything is good. "

I said nothing about the appreciation of art I did though suggest i would appreciate clean air more than art.

"Your view of art as a luxury for the wealthy seems very out of step with what I know of art and artists. For me, art is something that people feel compelled to do rather than an activity of leisure after everything else has been done. Of course there will always be people for whom it is little more than a pleasurable hobby but to paint all of art like that does not resonate with my experience at all."

Actually it is my view that we in our cocooned from real life existence play at the idea we suffer. Recently my mum died and then a loved pet died and then the family disintegrated because of one person's greed, but any suffering I feel pales into insignificance when I look at the suffering of the Syrian refugees who have lost their families and homes and everything they owned, or the disabled on benefits in the UK who have committed suicide because of the Government's, for want of a better word, pogrom against them. You quoted an artist wallowing in her suffering to produce beautiful art, My thoughts are , only in the west! While n the East Banksy's art borne from the real suffering of loss is pulled down, packed up, and shipped to the US for sale.


Sat today

[RichardH]

Hi Stev. Considering this is the all topics related to zazen forum. It might be good to mention that self-importance or self-denial both go out the window on the cushion. Art is either important or not important depending on the context, and no context is absolute. The best I got is honest perspective.

In the context of the history of Zen, art has played a beautiful and (IMO) important part, and hopefully will continue to.

Gassho
Daizan

sattoday

[Kokuu]

Actually it is my view that we in our cocooned from real life existence play at the idea we suffer

It is great you feel compassion for people in Syria and those hit by the destruction of the welfare state in the UK. I might, however, suggest that you can widen that to include others without suggesting they are wallowing in suffering or playing at it.

I am sorry to hear about your own struggles. Looking at the suffering of others can indeed put our own travails into perspective. Using the worst of human experience as a benchmark to measure what others are going through may be less helpful.

Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday

[Stev]

Daizan, yes art/creativity is a wonderful thing and certainly , if there is such a thing, the art of Zen is in fact one of the things that drew me to Zen.

Koku you have stumbled from one accusation to another and now you criticize my own practice, much of what you have accused me of I haven't said. Let me be quite clear, I have said this three times now please understand what I am saying.

I find the artist's assertion about art and oxygen pretentious.

I am allowed to feel this lol

I find her wallowing in her suffering, that is how I felt after reading her interview. In fact I actually had a picture in my mind of hippos wallowing in mud.
The idea beauty comes from suffering is just her subjectivity under the cover of Zen. Yet Zen is not self help, it is not a therapy, it is a search for truth, the search for reality. Is art reality? I don't know, but I wouldn't take an artist's opinion, I formulate my own then I let it go.

I have sat today

[alan.r]

Something like this to me:

"Who says my poems are poems?
These poems are not poems.
When you can understand this,
then we can begin to speak of poetry."

-Ryokan

Gassho,
Alan
sattoday

[Risho]

hahahahah true

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Jinyo]

Something like this to me:

"Who says my poems are poems?
These poems are not poems.
When you can understand this,
then we can begin to speak of poetry."

-Ryokan

Gassho,
Alan
sattoday

That's strange Alan - I've just been reading 'One Robe One Bowl' this afternoon

Gassho

Willow

Sat today

[alan.r]

That's strange Alan - I've just been reading 'One Robe One Bowl' this afternoon

Gassho

Willow

Sat today

Hi Willow. Nice! It's one of the few books I like to keep close at hand.

Gassho,
Alan
sattoday

[Byrne]

If anyone really wants to go off the deep end with zen and art read John Cage's Silence. I'm pretty sure he was more of a Rinzai guy.

Gassho

Sat Today

[Risho]

Total side topic and just in case you haven't heard of it --> check out Sky Above, Great Wind

[Jinyo]

Thanks Risho - looks good