Buddhism More Than Just Meditation?

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  • will
    Member
    • Jun 2007
    • 2331

    #16
    Re: Buddhism More Than Just Meditation?

    pantheist mindset
    Ha. Maybe, but I wouldn't really say that. I don't think there is necessarily a prerequisite to sitting. The whole point is to see whatever mindset you may have. All kinds come from all places to the cushion. Sounds like an excuse to me. I'm not pantheist enough. Blah blah blah. Go sit please.

    btw off topic(if anyone can relate) one of the biggests barriers to my practice was my inability to relax. Yoga has really helped with that. No joke. I heard a quote recently that was kind of cool. Yoga's purpose is to make sure the body is healthy and strong so we can meditate.

    In Gassho Will
    [size=85:z6oilzbt]
    To save all sentient beings, though beings are numberless.
    To penetrate reality, though reality is boundless.
    To transform all delusion, though delusions are immeasurable.
    To attain the enlightened way, a way non-attainable.
    [/size:z6oilzbt]

    Comment

    • Jundo
      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
      • Apr 2006
      • 42321

      #17
      Re: Buddhism More Than Just Meditation?

      Originally posted by Keith

      Jundo, just curious, could mantra meditation be considered shikantza if a true goallessness is found? When I was practicing Catholicism I learned to meditate via "Christian Meditation" as taught by the late Benedictine monk John Main: (http://www.wccm.org). He just taught a simple matra "Ma-ra-na-tha" (an Aramaic word meaning "Come, Lord"). He taught just to say the mantra, that's it. He said not to think about the meaning of the word, just say it, and eventually it'll drop away naturally. Can something like this (I guess similar ways of meditating are taught within the Vipassana tradition) be considered shikantaza?
      I would think that meditation on a mantra would tend to carry one away from just being present in the place where we are, although it might be very effective in inducing various intense states. For the same reason, we don't drop acid or peyote to meditate. In "Just Sitting", we are just in this world, in this life, which is ours ... even as we come to see that life/world in radically new ways. So, we just sit openly aware with our eyes not closed, right in the room where we sit.

      Originally posted by Keith

      I tend to agree, but it doesn't seem (at least to me) that meditation (at least the shikantza done here) will ever really take the world by storm. This is just a thought; I know we're not into increasing our numbers and getting more converts than other groups, but I mean Soka Gakkai, for example, has become pretty popular in the US, perhaps because of its pretty simple message and practice.
      Well, call me a cultural and Buddhist snob, but more people in America are also interested in Britney Spears, eating junk food and seeing Rambo movies, while I prefer Miles Davis jazz, good fresh food and some film with subtitles from Sweden. Religion is the opiate of the people, and most folks just want some simple message to keep them feeling protected and, god willing, healthy and prosperous.

      Sure, like jazz or classical music, fine cooking, or a good Bergman flick, our way takes some effort and intelligence, but I believe it is worth it.

      So, call me a Buddhist snob.

      Gassho, Jundo
      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

      Comment

      • chicanobudista
        Member
        • Mar 2008
        • 861

        #18
        Re: Buddhism More Than Just Meditation?

        Originally posted by TracyF
        I agree. Shikantaza is hard and I think people need to have a pantheist mindset to be able to do it right. That may be just me projecting myself.
        W/o going to off-topice, what is a "pantheist mindset"? :?:
        paz,
        Erik


        Flor de Nopal Sangha

        Comment

        • Dainin
          Member
          • Sep 2007
          • 389

          #19
          Re: Buddhism More Than Just Meditation?

          Originally posted by will
          Ha. Maybe, but I wouldn't really say that. I don't think there is necessarily a prerequisite to sitting. The whole point is to see whatever mindset you may have. All kinds come from all places to the cushion. Sounds like an excuse to me. I'm not pantheist enough. Blah blah blah. Go sit please.
          I’m not sure what you are talking about. No one said that pantheism is a prerequisite for sitting. And what "excuse" are you talking about? I simply made the statement that I think pantheism fits well with Zen, nothing more nothing less. And I personally find it a bit condescending when you tell people to "go sit."

          Comment

          • Dainin
            Member
            • Sep 2007
            • 389

            #20
            Re: Buddhism More Than Just Meditation?

            Originally posted by Jundo
            I would think that meditation on a mantra would tend to carry one away from just being present in the place where we are, although it might be very effective in inducing various intense states. For the same reason, we don't drop acid or peyote to meditate. In "Just Sitting", we are just in this world, in this life, which is ours ... even as we come to see that life/world in radically new ways. So, we just sit openly aware with our eyes not closed, right in the room where we sit.
            From my understanding, the mantra mediation I’m referring to (e.g., that of John Main and the Kwan Um School of Zen) has nothing to do with inducing intense states. Perhaps it has a little different "goal" than shikantaza (i.e., to quiet the mind), but I don't think it's about being all blissed out. And I think comparing mantra meditation to taking drugs is extreme and unfair.

            Originally posted by Jundo
            Religion is the opiate of the people, and most folks just want some simple message to keep them feeling protected and, god willing, healthy and prosperous.
            I think you have a very elementary take on religion. And to keep comparing your views to high culture and intelligence and "most people's" to low culture and opiates is also condescending. This reminds of someone who has been hurt in some way by their religion of origin and can't see the whole of it objectively. I don’t think it’s a matter of you being a snob; I think it just shows your prejudice.

            Comment

            • will
              Member
              • Jun 2007
              • 2331

              #21
              Re: Buddhism More Than Just Meditation?

              I’m not sure what you are talking about. No one said that pantheism is a prerequisite for sitting. And what "excuse" are you talking about? I simply made the statement that I think pantheism fits well with Zen, nothing more nothing less.
              Not necessarily directed towards you Kieth. Sitting is neither hard nor easy. I heard someone once say be careful of the -ist and -isms.

              Nobody is condescending. It's your friends job to tell you you have food in your teeth. And who am I to say that right? What makes me so special right? Well, nothing, but will keep speaking when it calls for it whether you like it or not. Sometimes that's all that needs to be said.

              You know. People have all kinds of doubts about their practice. Why is my practice so bad? Maybe this isn't for me. I'm not pantheist enough. Well, go sit with that and keep doing that. Keep doing that until you stop listening to little doubter.

              Anyway, that wasn't directed towards you.

              Gassho Will

              Pantheist:
              the doctrine that God is the transcendent reality of which the material universe and human beings are only manifestations: it involves a denial of God's personality and expresses a tendency to identify God and nature.
              [size=85:z6oilzbt]
              To save all sentient beings, though beings are numberless.
              To penetrate reality, though reality is boundless.
              To transform all delusion, though delusions are immeasurable.
              To attain the enlightened way, a way non-attainable.
              [/size:z6oilzbt]

              Comment

              • Jundo
                Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                • Apr 2006
                • 42321

                #22
                Re: Buddhism More Than Just Meditation?

                Hi Keith,

                You are certainly right here and I spoke without knowing clearly what you meant. What kind of mantra practice, specifically, are you referring to? What is being chanted, and what are they attempting to produce through the chanting? I might try to respond better then.

                Originally posted by Keith

                From my understanding, the mantra mediation I’m referring to (e.g., that of John Main and the Kwan Um School of Zen) has nothing to do with inducing intense states. Perhaps it has a little different "goal" than shikantaza (i.e., to quiet the mind), but I don't think it's about being all blissed out. And I think comparing mantra meditation to taking drugs is extreme and unfair.
                As to the following ..

                Originally posted by Keith
                I think you have a very elementary take on religion. And to keep comparing your views to high culture and intelligence and "most people's" to low culture and opiates is also condescending. This reminds of someone who has been hurt in some way by their religion of origin and can't see the whole of it objectively. I don’t think it’s a matter of you being a snob; I think it just shows your prejudice.
                I did not mean that all religion is a matter of such things, and there is all manner of depth and variety of approaches to religion. I was merely responding to your comment on why groups like Soka Gakkai do such a better "recruiting" job then do many Zen groups. The Zen philosophy is less approachable, and the practice perhaps more demanding. We certainly have nothing to clearly offer folks to compare with an eternity in heaven on one's death merely for having faith in a god, buddha or book (sure, we have "enlightenment" and such, but that it a much more nebulous concept ... surely not as immediate as the instant gratification of knowing one was going to get a golden mansion stock with virgins and free ice cream sundaes for all eternity.

                As I understand what most folks are looking for in their religion, and especially from the central message of Soka Gakkai and like groups, it is basically "prosperity gospel".

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_gospel

                Soka Gakkai offers a similar message, at least as its initial attraction to new members ...

                http://www.sgidc.com/diversity.html

                Gassho, Jundo


                PS - Everybody be nice
                ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                Comment

                • chicanobudista
                  Member
                  • Mar 2008
                  • 861

                  #23
                  Re: Buddhism More Than Just Meditation?

                  Originally posted by Jundo
                  I would think that meditation on a mantra would tend to carry one away from just being present in the place where we are, although it might be very effective in inducing various intense states. For the same reason, we don't drop acid or peyote to meditate. In "Just Sitting", we are just in this world, in this life, which is ours ... even as we come to see that life/world in radically new ways. So, we just sit openly aware with our eyes not closed, right in the room where we sit.
                  Originally posted by Keith
                  From my understanding, the mantra mediation I’m referring to (e.g., that of John Main and the Kwan Um School of Zen) has nothing to do with inducing intense states. Perhaps it has a little different "goal" than shikantaza (i.e., to quiet the mind), but I don't think it's about being all blissed out. And I think comparing mantra meditation to taking drugs is extreme and unfair.
                  Keith, I understand your critique of Jundo's take on usage of psychotropic substances vis a vis mantra meditation. Nevertheless, I do think Jundo raises a valid point in regards to what differentiates shikantaza or Buddhist meditation in general as opposed to the usage of psychotropic substances to understand "our reality". If you are subbed to e-sangha, you will notice once in a while someone inquiring about the relation between meditation, psychotropic substances, and Buddhism. As if by coincidence, after reading your exchange, I opened my "Discover" magazine and came upon this interview:

                  "The Discover Interview
                  Wade Davis
                  by Jessica Ruvinsky"

                  [Discover Magazine - April 2008 - pg. 32]
                  Did you try ayahuasca?
                  Oh yes, many times.

                  What is it like?
                  You are flung into other levels of reality so visceral, so tangible, so all-enveloping, that they become your sense of the real world. And you suddenly realize that the relatively mundane realm of ordinary consciousness is a crude facsimile of what awaits in the psychotropic trance. This and other experiences in the presence of people taken by the spirit left me with visceral evidence that cultural beliefs can really make for different human beings, that there are other ways of knowing, other levels of intuition, that cannot necessarily be understood through the filter of Cartesian logic.



                  So drugs do for the Seona people what sciences does for us?
                  Not drugs. That's a pejorative notion in our society--cocaine, crack, crystal meth, whatever. These aren't drugs. These are sacred medicines. These are the facilitators. These are the avenues to the doorways of the gods.
                  IMHO, it does raise a valid question. Why do zazen? Why do shikantaza? Are there "better" ways? What differentiates what we do from what someone else does through peyote or ayahuasca.

                  Caveat: I do not condone nor advocate the usage of such substances. Just in case. :mrgreen:
                  paz,
                  Erik


                  Flor de Nopal Sangha

                  Comment

                  • Skye
                    Member
                    • Feb 2008
                    • 234

                    #24
                    Re: Buddhism More Than Just Meditation?

                    Wow, this thread has gone all over the map Some thoughts...

                    From the beginning of the Western Buddhist tradition there have been many instances of Westerners re-introducing a revitalized Buddhist tradition to its country of origin. The story of Col. Olcott in Sri Lanka (Ceylon) is fascinating:

                    http://aryasangha.org/olcott-prothero.htm

                    On the topic of shikantaza vs everything else, one of the things I love about Zen is the way it almost comes full circle back to Therevada arhat practise - be a light unto yourself, rely on yourself - while completely integrating the Mahayana ideals of no-self, no-other, nothing to add, nothing to subtract .... ahh, its just brilliant. I LOVE IT

                    But there's no one way right for everybody. But, I'd say, if you're going to do Soto Zen, really do Soto Zen and listen to the teacher....

                    Skye
                    Even on one blade of grass / the cool breeze / lingers - Issa

                    Comment

                    • Dainin
                      Member
                      • Sep 2007
                      • 389

                      #25
                      Re: Buddhism More Than Just Meditation?

                      Originally posted by will
                      Not necessarily directed towards you Kieth.
                      Okay, but maybe it’s a good idea to identify to whom you are directing your comments. Since Tracy and I are the only ones who mentioned Pantheism, I think you can see why I may have thought you were referring to my post.

                      Originally posted by will
                      but will keep speaking when it calls for it whether you like it or not.
                      Ditto.

                      Originally posted by will
                      You know. People have all kinds of doubts about their practice. Why is my practice so bad? Maybe this isn't for me. I'm not pantheist enough. Well, go sit with that and keep doing that. Keep doing that until you stop listening to little doubter.
                      I really do not know what you're trying to say here. What does this have to do with my post?

                      Comment

                      • paige
                        Member
                        • Apr 2007
                        • 234

                        #26
                        Re: Buddhism More Than Just Meditation?

                        Two neurologists, Newberg and D'Aquili, recently did some interesting work with SPECT scans. It looks as though Tibetan monks in mediation and Franciscan nuns in prayer show pretty much the same kind of brain activity. So a bit more evidence for the "many paths up the mountain" view.

                        O/T but Charles, I guess it's a regional thing - where I used to live in Toronto, we had a quite large nooj (Non Observant Orthodox Jew) :mrgreen: population!

                        Comment

                        • Dainin
                          Member
                          • Sep 2007
                          • 389

                          #27
                          Re: Buddhism More Than Just Meditation?

                          Hi Jundo,

                          Originally posted by Jundo
                          You are certainly right here and I spoke without knowing clearly what you meant. What kind of mantra practice, specifically, are you referring to? What is being chanted, and what are they attempting to produce through the chanting? I might try to respond better then.
                          I apologize for being unclear. I am aware that different schools of meditation in Buddhism and out focus on mantras or the breath simply to "quiet the mind." For instance, the Kwan Um School teaches one to think "Clear Mind" on the in breath and "Don't Know" on the out breath. I know in Insight Meditation, some teachers teach just to focus on the sensation of the breath on the nostrils. And I've mentioned John Main's Christian Meditation where they think that Aramaic word on the in and out breaths in equal syllables - "Ma-ra (in breath) "na-tha" (out breath). As far as I've read and heard, they seem very clear that's these are just simple techniques to quiet the mind, to just focus on the mantra or breath, and not to induce some altered state. It seems to me very similar to counting the breaths.

                          Originally posted by Jundo
                          I did not mean that all religion is a matter of such things, and there is all manner of depth and variety of approaches to religion. I was merely responding to your comment on why groups like Soka Gakkai do such a better "recruiting" job then do many Zen groups. The Zen philosophy is less approachable, and the practice perhaps more demanding. We certainly have nothing to clearly offer folks to compare with an eternity in heaven on one's death merely for having faith in a god, buddha or book (sure, we have "enlightenment" and such, but that it a much more nebulous concept ... surely not as immediate as the instant gratification of knowing one was going to get a golden mansion stock with virgins and free ice cream sundaes for all eternity.

                          As I understand what most folks are looking for in their religion, and especially from the central message of Soka Gakkai and like groups, it is basically "prosperity gospel".
                          Thank you for clearing that up. I agree with you here. Although, the ice cream sounds great.

                          Originally posted by Jundo
                          PS - Everybody be nice
                          Aww, shucks. Okaaaayyyy... :wink:

                          Gassho,
                          Keith

                          Comment

                          • Dainin
                            Member
                            • Sep 2007
                            • 389

                            #28
                            Re: Buddhism More Than Just Meditation?

                            Originally posted by chicanobudista
                            Keith, I understand your critique of Jundo's take on usage of psychotropic substances vis a vis mantra meditation. Nevertheless, I do think Jundo raises a valid point in regards to what differentiates shikantaza or Buddhist meditation in general as opposed to the usage of psychotropic substances to understand "our reality".
                            I agree. It's a valid point. It's just not really a subject I'm that into.

                            Originally posted by chicanobudista
                            IMHO, it does raise a valid question. Why do zazen? Why do shikantaza? Are there "better" ways?
                            I think it's up to each individual to answer these questions for him/herself.

                            Comment

                            • Dainin
                              Member
                              • Sep 2007
                              • 389

                              #29
                              Re: Buddhism More Than Just Meditation?

                              By the way, I'm sorry for the multiple responses. I don't know how to quote more than one person per post!

                              Hi Skye,

                              Originally posted by Skye
                              But there's no one way right for everybody. But, I'd say, if you're going to do Soto Zen, really do Soto Zen and listen to the teacher....
                              I heartily agree. However, one must have a teacher worth listening to, one who the student can trust; and only the individual can decide that for him/her self.

                              Comment

                              • TracyF
                                Member
                                • Nov 2007
                                • 188

                                #30
                                Re: Buddhism More Than Just Meditation?

                                Hey Gang,

                                I wasn't thinking about a Pantheist mindset as an intellectual construct. It's feeling the divine in Nature just as it is. No thinking. Just feeling/"knowing", whatever. Keith knows what I'm talkin' about.

                                And so does Clint Eastwood: https://<div class="videocontainer w... </a> </div> or https://<div class="videocontainer w... </a> </div>
                                and other assorted gold prospectors https://<div class="videocontainer w... </a> </div>

                                :mrgreen:

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