Proposal for Sangha Discussion: "SAT TODAY!" - Sitting Before Talking

[Jika]

Have been sitting with that:

This Practice is nothing but obstacle after obstacle until no obstacles remain.

Shikantaza is the first non-obstacle ever in my life.
Please, do not make it one

It is absolute freedom. It is coming home.
It is a glove that perfectly fits, and the hand has no size.
However big or small, it is the universe.
But then, love poetry is just delusion

Sorry for threadjacking.
May we all be at peace, embracing all conditions of life.
Gassho,
Danny
#sattoday

Hearing Jundo.
Hearing Dosho.
Hearing the silent ones who never say anything or stopped saying something.
One sangha.
Nothing more to say.

Deep bows,
Nindo

_/sat today\_

[Dosho]

Jundo,

I think you completely misunderstand me. But that's ok; most people do!

And that's not said with sarcasm or some belief that I have "special wisdom" that others do not. In fact, if I had to lay money on it I'd probably bet against myself.

That's really all I have left to say. Thank you for allowing me to speak my mind.

Gassho,
Dosho

Sat today

[Jundo]

Barrier?

I saw this yesterday about some Chinese nuns who interpret their Zen Practice like this.

http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/pictures/devout-chinese-ascetic-nuns-live-a-peripatetic-life-of-hardship.html

I believe in removing barriers to people, but if the "barrier" is something as simple as refusing to support others by declaring for all one's sitting each day as an encouragement to others, or feeling that it is too much before they come here to "yack yack" ... well, they can take a hike right out the door. Bye. This Practice is not for them if something like that is the obstacle. This Practice is nothing but obstacle after obstacle until no obstacles remain.

Again, I am not talking about newcomers during the first weeks or months while they are settling in. Nor is there anything competitive about it. It is simply an "I sat today, and so can you!"

Now let me ask: Are those nuns, by marching so publicly through the streets, bragging about their spiritual worth? Or are they marching in humility, all the while encouraging others who might see them?

Just how much do we have to cater to folks around here about what they want or do not want to do? How namby pamby do we have to make things? Everyone has complaints when, if they were to spend a single day in a Zen Monastery, they would be handed a dozen tasks, duties and rules to comply with that they felt make no sense, are an afront to the ego, are hard to master, seem dumb and inefficient, are not "what one wants to do, but it helps the groups" etc. Kinda like the army. I wonder if any of those nuns complain about how silly their walks, how competitive it seems, and how they might discourage all the non-walkers of the world.

Gassho, J

[Dosho]

Jundo,

I did not say that it would cause anyone's suffering. I merely suggested that some might perceive it to be a barrier. But that barrier would be a delusion of their own making. And, as I said, I agree that for many if not most it will serve exactly the purpose you state in your comments. I am just concerned for the outliers.

At one time you spoke of months before we would require folks to post "sat today" and now you speak of weeks. I am only suggesting that we do not push quite so hard so quickly. What is the rush? I just think we should allow folks who fall flat on their faces to get back up again, not because we will take away a vehicle of expression if they don't, but because they have the will to keep going. But it is just an opinion and I know full well it is not a majority one.

I do not believe that there is a problem at Treeleaf with people posting too much but not sitting. And even if there is such an issue, people who are "addicted" to posting and see Treeleaf more as a forum than a sangha will always find a way around the rule.

However, I know you feel strongly that there is a problem and that this will be a great remedy. You are our teacher and I will trust your judgment in this matter. I only speak my mind until a decision is made. After that, the matter is settled.

Gassho,
Dosho

Sat today

Hi Dosho,

I fail to see how writing "SatToday" will cause anyone to suffer in silence. Rather, it will encourage so many folks who may need the extra boost and encouragement, from within oneself and from seeing that others are sitting. If one is in a monastery, one sometimes heads to the Zendo (instead of staying in bed) because all one's fellow monks are heading to the Zendo, because one feels the duty to encourage and join in with them ... and, in turn, be encouraged by them.

We are not requiring anyone to say so during their first weeks here, until they are comfortable with the Practice. But, after that, if something as simple as making sure they "sat before yack yack chat" is too big a barrier to someone, then they are bound to encounter 1000 greater barriers to discourage them in this Practice which is not for tourists and spectators.

We will take stock of this after the month, but so far I think it has been better than even I expected. I must confess it got me on the cushion one morning I almost let it slip.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jundo]

Hi Dosho,

I fail to see how writing "SatToday" will cause anyone to suffer in silence. Rather, it will encourage so many folks who may need the extra boost and encouragement, from within oneself and from seeing that others are sitting. If one is in a monastery, one sometimes heads to the Zendo (instead of staying in bed) because all one's fellow monks are heading to the Zendo, because one feels the duty to encourage and join in with them ... and, in turn, be encouraged by them.

We are not requiring anyone to say so during their first weeks here, until they are comfortable with the Practice. But, after that, if something as simple as making sure they "sat before yack yack chat" is too big a barrier to someone, then they are bound to encounter 1000 greater barriers to discourage them in this Practice which is not for tourists and spectators.

We will take stock of this after the month, but so far I think it has been better than even I expected. I must confess it got me on the cushion one morning I almost let it slip.

Gassho, Jundo

[Dosho]

Hi PaulMac
Just a thought, confusion may come from looking at this issue in the context of the forum rather than as a member of the Treeleaf Sangha. My perspective is that the "forum" is simply a vehicle for communication among Sangha members and as such Jundo has simply requested we sit before chatting on the forum. No ego, no oppression, just a reminder to ourselves and our brothers and sisters at Treeleaf.

SAT TODAY

I agree with you (and Kyonin) completely...that's what it is about.

My concern is for those just starting along the Way. For some it will be most helpful in creating a daily practice, but for some, maybe only a handful, it may seem like a barrier too big to break through. And if that leads to them abandoning the Way...well, that doesn't mean they won't find it again...but those are the folks I want to help the most. The ones who don't speak up and suffer in silence, but find solace in like minded people. And with their support they may find that practice is possible, but it may take a long time...perhaps more than a few months. It's the plight of those folks I am most concerned about and why I became a novice-priest.

In this and everything I say I may very well be wrong. Indeed, I very much hope I am!

Gassho,
Dosho

Sat today

[Kyonin]

Hi PaulMac
Just a thought, confusion may come from looking at this issue in the context of the forum rather than as a member of the Treeleaf Sangha. My perspective is that the "forum" is simply a vehicle for communication among Sangha members and as such Jundo has simply requested we sit before chatting on the forum. No ego, no oppression, just a reminder to ourselves and our brothers and sisters at Treeleaf.

SAT TODAY

Thank you. That's how I see it too.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[lorax]

Hi PaulMac
Just a thought, confusion may come from looking at this issue in the context of the forum rather than as a member of the Treeleaf Sangha. My perspective is that the "forum" is simply a vehicle for communication among Sangha members and as such Jundo has simply requested we sit before chatting on the forum. No ego, no oppression, just a reminder to ourselves and our brothers and sisters at Treeleaf.

SAT TODAY

[Oheso]

Not thinking not thinking

or, thinking not thinking?

gassho, O

said, having sat

Hi PaulMc,
welcome! We have an introductions thread if you'd like to say a little about yourself, and folks will make you feel welcome!

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12893-Greetings-by-new-folks-%28November%29

Gassho,
Nindo

[Dosho]

Jundo,

I would just add that there are some sangha members who aren't in favor of the plan and might disagree with some of the statements you made below, but all are trying it out for 30 days regardless of how anybody feels about it. So, there will be some discussion at the end of the trial period, at least I hope so. And I hope that even those folks who think it is a good (or even great) idea also keep an open mind to possible downsides of the plan and respect any who are not in favor of the idea.

Gassho,
Dosho

Sat today

Yes, that is correct. This is meant as an encouragement to others, and a reminder to ourselves to have "sat before chat". There is no bragging or showing off about this sat.

That is why we ask folks not to post how often or long or days in a row someone may have sat, because there is no competition. A sit is a sat, beyond long or short and all competition.

Posting "Sat Today" is a sign of service and support of others, and togetherness of the Sangha in sitting together ... no ego or bragging about it.

Gassho, Jundo

Sattoday!

[Myosha]

Hello,

Not thinking not thinking
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Gassho,
Myosha sat today

[Jundo]

Thanks for your question Paul. I encourage correction from our senior members or teachers if I am a little off base. My understanding of #sattoday is not so much to declare that one sat, more so to remind folks that zazen after all, is the one thing that is asked of all members. So if one is posting and participating in forums, one also needs to make sure one is sitting.

Gassho, Shawn

Yes, that is correct. This is meant as an encouragement to others, and a reminder to ourselves to have "sat before chat". There is no bragging or showing off about this sat.

That is why we ask folks not to post how often or long or days in a row someone may have sat, because there is no competition. A sit is a sat, beyond long or short and all competition.

Posting "Sat Today" is a sign of service and support of others, and togetherness of the Sangha in sitting together ... no ego or bragging about it.

Gassho, Jundo

Sattoday!

I'm new to the forum but a little confused, can someone tell me why it is important to publicly declare that they have sat today? Is this worn as a badge of honour? Surely this is a little egotistical and not within the spirit of Zen practice? #sattoday

Hello Paul and welcome, Shawn speaks it very well. =)

Thanks for your question Paul. I encourage correction from our senior members or teachers if I am a little off base. My understanding of #sattoday is not so much to declare that one sat, more so to remind folks that zazen after all, is the one thing that is asked of all members. So if one is posting and participating in forums, one also needs to make sure one is sitting.

Gassho, Shawn

Also see Jundo's original posting on this topic and hopefully that helps with any questions. =)

Dear all,

I have a proposal that I would like to try in this Sangha for a month, then keep if it works out. Comments please.

It is great that we talk on this forum so warmly about so many topics regarding Zen Practice and All of Life. However, before talking, this community is ultimately a Practice Place for Zazen Sitting!

So, the idea is that folks (not including relatively new members) will be asked to print the words "SAT TODAY!" next to their signature on any posting they make to this Forum!

"Sat Today" will mean that they have sat Zazen for even a few minutes within the previous 24 hours or so.

The rule would not apply to relatively new members during their first 3 months of membership. Also, it would not apply to folks who have a good reason not to have sat such as health, life emergencies or genuine trouble with sitting. They are always welcome to post if they could not sit.

However, for other folks, I will remind in a gentle way, "Did you sit today, because we should not talk until we have sat. Please include 'Sat Today' by your name to show!"　I will ask people kindly not to engage in chit chat until they have sat, unless their is some special reason.

What do you feel?

I feel it will be lovely to see long strings of ...

"Sat Today!"

"Sat Today!"

"Sat Today!"

... by our various members names! I hope it will built energy and community spirit for all of us sitting around the world!

Well, that is the proposal.

Gassho, Jundo SAT TODAY!

PS - Some folks might wonder why "Sat Today!" and not "I Sat Today!"? Well, there reason is simply there is no "I" in Shikantaza sitting!!

Gassho
Shingen

#SatToday