Thought "volume" during Zazen

[Steven]

I've only recently begun to practice Zazen in the last 2 - 3 weeks, and one thing I have noticed is that I have varying thought "volume" (like decibels not measurement). Some thoughts are akin to a stream: not very loud and they seem to come and go without much notice. Other thoughts, though, are a lot like the blender metaphor that Jundo uses in his first beginner talk: they're very loud, come on quickly, and it is difficult for me to resume concentration on my breathing. My question, I suppose, is will these thoughts become more quiet as I continue my practice or will it become easier to divert these thoughts and resume concentration on the breath through practice? Maybe both? Just thought I'd ask!

Gassho,
Steven

[Kokuu]

Hi Steven

Personally I find that some days my thoughts are loud, others days quieter, some kinds of thoughts are loud, some quiet. I would say that over time I worry less about whether they are loud or quiet and judge myself less at getting distracted when i get caught up in thought cycles.

It sounds like you are practising some kind of breath mindfulness which is different to the Shikantaza ("just sitting") form of zazen done here in which the breath is not the primary focus.

Jack Kornfield once told his teacher proudly that he had managed to stop his thoughts. His teacher responded 'what is wrong with thoughts?'. Over time they may seem more like leaves in the wind and less substantial than they do now but not necessarily. Don't worry about what will happen with more practice, just practice and see what is happening now. The future will take care of itself.

Gassho
Andy

[Mp]

Thanks for your post Steven. Andy has also made a point on this - whether the thoughts are load or soft, just be with them and let them come in the form the come. Let them go in the form they are in as well.

Will they get softer in time, yes and no ... they may be load but you are not so focused on them, so they are what they are - load and soft are no longer, they are all mute.

Gassho
Shingen

[sittingzen]

Hi Steven,

No volume, low volume, heavy volume; we just sit.

Gassho,

Lu

[Steven]

It sounds like you are practising some kind of breath mindfulness which is different to the Shikantaza ("just sitting") form of zazen done here in which the breath is not the primary focus.

I merely based this practice on what Shunryu Suzuki said about practicing Zazen in "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" and John Daido Lorri in "Finding the Still Point." I am completely open to any suggestions from the sangha about Shikantanza as I have seemed to not completely grasp that concept. Thank you everyone for your input!

Gassho,
Steven

[Jundo]

Hi Steven,

Do look at our Beginners Videos (We are Always Beginners). I tend to move folks away from counting or following the breath once they develop some basic calm and balance in their sitting.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?63-A-SERIES-OF-TALKS-FOR-NEW-FOLKS

Different teachers of Shikantaza will emphasize various approaches. Here, I try to move folks to "open, spacious awareness of everything and nothing in particular" for reasons I discuss in the videos.

As to the thoughts, the stillness and relative quiet of Zazen can make thinking louder or more hectic for a time, because people are not used to the quiet. I can compare it to a story I just heard about people trying a special "quiet room" at a university, quieter than any place on earth. People suddenly hear their heart beat very loudly, and often become mentally disoriented for a time.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/HTNext/ZanyScience/Why-world-s-most-silent-room-is-scary/Article1-835428.aspx

They are not used to it. If you sit with this Practice for a time, this will settle down. The folks above in this thread have all given good advice.

Gassho, J

[adrianbkelly]

Hi Steven,
Welcome to Treeleaf! It has taken me years of practise to realise I don't need to control my thoughts in Zazen, or to strive for any kind of special mental state at all. Now I just sit with whatever happens, whether my head is spinning with thoughts, it's very quiet & peaceful or (like yesterday) I have the latest Katy Perry song on repeat for half an hour!

_/\_
Ade

[Jundo]

Hi Steven,
Welcome to Treeleaf! It has taken me years of practise to realise I don't need to control my thoughts in Zazen, or to strive for any kind of special mental state at all. Now I just sit with whatever happens, whether my head is spinning with thoughts, it's very quiet & peaceful or (like yesterday) I have the latest Katy Perry song on repeat for half an hour!

_/\_
Ade

Yet, we do not grab on or wallow in any of that. I know that is what you mean.

If Katy Perry comes, we do not just sit there humming away. We walk out of the theatre, and let her get on her way.

It is sometimes a fine line between "letting thoughts just come and be" and "not grabbing onto thoughts and letting them drift bye bye".

Gassho, J

[adrianbkelly]

Yet, we do not grab on or wallow in any of that. I know that is what you mean.

If Katy Perry comes, we do not just sit there humming away. We walk out of the theatre, and let her get on her way.

It is sometimes a fine line between "letting thoughts just come and be" and "not grabbing onto thoughts and letting them drift bye bye".

Gassho, J

Yes, Jundo, that is what I meant; thanks for helping to clarify (online communication is an art I'm not too versed in!!)

I arrived here from a vipassana practice, which was all about trying to quiet the mind & achieve access concentration. I found that when I started just sitting I still had the desire to do the same & produce a quiet state & it took a long time to let that go. I don't mean that I just sit there indulging in whatever comes along (or in the case of the Katy Perry song, trying to push it away as hard as possible ), but that I try to just be aware of whatever state my mind is in & let the thoughts come & go.

Even recently, I've found myself trying to reach some idealised state of mind, separate from what is actually happening & it can be quite difficult to see that that is just another thought say bye bye to.

I'll stop now before I dig myself in deeper!!!!

_/\_
Ade

[Jundo]

[Jakugan]

Hi Steven,

As others have said, thoughts are not a bad thing. They are the scenery of your Zazen, just as the world is the scenery of your life. Neither are they something we indulge in when they say hello. Whenever they appear during sitting, try to let them go rather then pushing them out (Kosho Uchiyama Roshi uses the analogy of opening the hand of thought). The beginner videos are really good so I'd recommend having a look.

Gassho,

Simon.

[Steven]

Hi Steven,

As others have said, thoughts are not a bad thing. They are the scenery of your Zazen, just as the world is the scenery of your life. Neither are they something we indulge in when they say hello. Whenever they appear during sitting, try to let them go rather then pushing them out (Kosho Uchiyama Roshi uses the analogy of opening the hand of thought). The beginner videos are really good so I'd recommend having a look.

Gassho,

Simon.

I've started them but I'm not through yet. I've been doing one each night before my evening Zazen.

[Kyonin]

Hi Steven! Welcome home!

Like all the wise friends said, we just sit. Thoughts come and go. Sometimes the come loud and fast like a speeding train. Sometimes they are pleasant and soothing.

And sometimes they don't come at all.

In any case, we sit so we can watch and let go. The key is to actually keep on sitting.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[shikantazen]

Yet, we do not grab on or wallow in any of that. I know that is what you mean.

If Katy Perry comes, we do not just sit there humming away. We walk out of the theatre, and let her get on her way.

It is sometimes a fine line between "letting thoughts just come and be" and "not grabbing onto thoughts and letting them drift bye bye".

Gassho, J

Hi Jundo,

That is an interesting line (the one in bold). I have been thinking what the difference is between the below two in practice.

Is it better to "just leave the mind to do whatever it needs to do" or is it better to "try not to get caught up in thought"?

The former sounds to me more like shikantaza. I feel trying not to grab onto thoughts creates a goal oriented attitude. doesn't it? but again letting the mind to whatever it needs to do (i.e., letting thoughts come, grab if that's what happening, and let them go when they want to; of course not purposefully/intentionally thinking something) might lead to more getting caught up.

can you elaborate more on the fine line aspect please? i sit the former way (leaving the mind) but yesterday there was a disturbing thought that kept returning (due to an argument i had with someone) and i tried to specifically stay with the emotion and it was gone.

gassho,
sam

[Biko]

One thing I can say is do not fight them. When you push, they push back harder. Try to take a step back like you are watching a film, just observing, not adding, not subtracting. We all struggle with these kind of "power thoughts" from time to time, especially when new to practice but once you let them go on their merry way, you always return to your seat, the here and now.

Gassho, Jeffrey