My experiment: Counting 'Sticky' Thoughts

[Mp]

Just sit, man.

Quit experimenting. Throw away your intellect for a bit.

In my humble opinion, the more you search, the less you sit.

Great words Kyonin.

Gassho
Shingen

[Jundo]

A couple of folks wrote to ask me if Shikantaza is still a "method" which does something, and a "seeking" to "attain" something.

That depends on semantics.

Is it a "doing" to be halting, to the marrow, all need to "do"? Is it "doing" to sit without reacting to circumstances and without tangling with thoughts? Is it "seeking" when what is being sought is the radical abandoning of all need to seek? Is it "attaining" when the treasure attained is the very discovery that nothing was missing from the start? Is it a "method" when this method consists of the abandoning of the need for targets and methods?

That is why Shikantaza is often called by such names as the "method of no method" and "doing-non-doing".

It is such an effective medicine because it is so antithetical to our normal way of living ... our daily chasing after this or that, running toward what we desire, running from what we fear, judging and dividing life, feeling lack. People do not know how to be living without chasing, needing, lacking, judging, dividing up the world into "self" and "other". One transcends all that, not by "doing" something, but by stopping "doing" ... namely, stopping to chase, need, lack, judge, divide

So, is a "stopping to do" a "doing"?

Sam wrote ...

I definitely think that I am going to get something out of my practice, more insight/wisdom and may be enlightenment/awakening/end-of-separation or duality.

Yes, that is the point! Do not take what I am saying to mean otherwise.

It is just that (counter-intuitive as it sounds) one way to end the subject-object duality, attain wisdom, enlightenment is ... like a dog finding his own tail when he stops chasing after it ... by radically abandoning all chasing after an object and by resting in wholeness, equanimity, flowing, non-resistance and contentment.

The student and the teacher are from the lineage of Mauzemi Roshi. Here is their website.

http://www.hazymoon.com/

I paint with a broad brush, but there is a tendency among many folks in the Maezumi Line (and among other teachers in the Rinzai-Soto hybrid derived from Harada and Yasutani Roshis and Sanbokyodan) to treat Shikantaza as just a side-show or stepping stone to build concentration for their Koan Introspection Zazen which they typically consider their central Practice and the main show. I do not put down their way at all (my long time mentor, Doshin Cantor, is a teacher in the Maezumi line). But their attitude toward Shikantaza is sometimes very subtle in its seeing it as just another means (and a weaker one) toward the same Kensho, although some many even deny they do so. However, with their main emphasis on Koan Zazen leading toward Kensho, they often see Shikantaza as just a similar means to an end. This is most clearly seen in the notorious essay by their root teacher, Yasutani Roshi, on Shikantaza as a means of intense concentration leading to an explosive Kensho ...

Generally speaking, zazen can be described in three phases: first, adjusting the body, second, the breathing, and third, the mind. The first and second are the same both in koan Zen and shikantaza. However, the third, adjusting the mind, is done very differently in the two practices. ...

When you thoroughly practice shikantaza you will sweat-even in the winter. Such intensely heightened alertness of mind cannot be maintained for long periods of time. ... Sit with such intensely heightened concentration, patience, and alertness that if someone were to touch you while you are sitting, there would be an electrical spark! Sitting thus, you return naturally to the original Buddha, the very nature of your being.

Then, almost anything can plunge you into the sudden realization that all beings are originally buddhas and all existence is perfect from the beginning. Experiencing this is called enlightenment. Personally experiencing this is as vivid as an explosion; regardless of how well you know the theory of explosions, only an actual explosion will do anything. In the same manner, no matter how much you know about enlightenment, until you actually experience it, you will not be intimately aware of yourself as Buddha.

In short, shikantaza is the actual practice of buddhahood itself from the very beginning-and, in diligently practicing shikantaza, when the time comes, one will realize that very fact.

However, to practice in this manner can require a long time to attain enlightenment, and such practice should never be discontinued until one fully realizes enlightenment. Even after attaining great enlightenment and even if one becomes a roshi, one must continue to do shikantaza forever, simply because shikantaza is the actualization of enlightenment itself.

http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=hBOr4OMIRSMC&pg=PA44&lpg=PA44&dq=When+you+thoroughly+practice+shikantaza+you+will+sweat&source=bl&ots=Ocu8PIPlSn&sig=XZyXJwyvg4eHl4jaBArf_q4pKmA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ku_OUbOXBujZigfEnIHYAQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=When%20you%20thoroughly%20practice%20shikantaza%20you%20will%20sweat&f=false

Other folks in that Lineage do not tend to have the intensity of Yasutani, but are nonetheless biased toward Shikantaza as a weak sister to their Koan Zazen path. It can be confusing to students who do not realize the situation.

Gassho, J

[Myosha]

Confused, not realizing and grateful.

Thank you.


Gassho,
Edward

[shikantazen]

Thanks Jundo. Yes it sounds to me like an issue of semantics.

The ultimate goal for any spiritual practice is awakening. Whether you reach it by stopping the movement of mind (Zen way) or through a series of progressive stages (Theravadan or other ways) there is still a journey to be taken. A journey required even though it is from here to here.

I wonder then why primarily in Zen the emphasis is on this kind of language of no-seeking, no-expectations, goalless etc... It kind of confuses me. Sometimes it feels like the way non-dual/advaita teachers talk; Powerful but not practical (having no expectations, not seeking etc). This language can even confuse and mislead students (to think no effort is required, no need to meditate etc).

How important is non-seeking? What if one continues to seek and continues to have expectations but does his zazen. Isn't true non-seeking something that comes as a result of practice after many years? Why should I beat up myself over that now? Is that (having no expectations etc) even in my control?

[Jundo]

Hi Sam,

I still feel that we are talking past each other a bit.

I would not describe Shikantaza as "stopping the movement of mind". Rather, it is like that classic description of "mirror mind", unencumbered and undisturbed with all that is. Perhaps we might describe Zazen as a kind of "Silence" heard both in silence or noise, a "non-thinking" as thoughts or as their absence.

It is instantaneous, in that we embody the mirror and silence in an instant (it is also timeless, because the unimpeded mirror is free of measures of time) ... yet it is progressive in that we do get better at it with time.

You do seem confused about the meaning of "non-seeking" and "goallessness" as some kind of resigned complacency, just sitting self-satisfied with our usual self. It is not. In fact, our "usual self" is typically anything but "goalless" and satisfied, and typically most people are filled with dissatisfaction, feelings of lack, worries about the future, regrets for the past, heads busy with divisive, greedy and sometimes angry thoughts. I am not advising that we just sit complacently with all that mess! Do not be misled to think so.

Rather, this "nothing in need of change" is a radical change to our usual "constantly seeking change" self. True sitting with radical "nothing in need" and "non-seeking" is the medicine for all that "dis-ease". We "just sit" in wholeness, abiding satisfaction, nothing lacking, free of worry or regret, letting be "might be" tomorrows and "should have been "yesterdays", dropping greed, anger and division. As I always say ... , radically dropping, to the marrow all need to attain, add or remove, or change in order to make life right and complete --IS-- A WONDROUS ATTAINMENT, ADDITION and CHANGE TO LIFE! (because very much unlike how we suffering human beings typically are)

Like all warm blooded animals, humans feel we must hunt, improve, capture life, attain goals and reach "success" ... yet, perhaps, this practice allows us to experience life as the stones and trees and stars and mountains. Do stones feel that they must get somewhere, achieve something to be more "stoney"? Is there a star in the sky that thinks "I do not belong in this universe, and this is not my place and time"? Only human beings sometimes feel out of place.

Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.


Gassho, Jundo

[alan.r]

My quick take:

Humans are thinking creatures and because of that, we like to assess and analyze and figure out. (We can even do this with our practice a little, too, I think) Nothing wrong with that. What is maybe kind of problem with that is when it is the sole way we approach our life. Constantly thinking, assessing, figuring out, in order to get better - then there is division and separation and delusion and disliking that and wanting this.

What shikantaza is to me is what we already are but which we forget. Yes, we have this thinking, intellectualizing brain, and it's seriously helpful - but we also are this being, this right now, and our thinking and assessing and figuring out often makes us forget our nowness, lacking nothing, as Jundo says. Shikantaza is sitting with what we already are, as what we are, but have maybe forgotten.

So, to me, the idea that you should be assessing your sticky thoughts is just another brain game, another way of forgetting what we already are, this, now, sitting, as Taigu would say, the entire universe sitting with you, sitting as you.

In this regard, there is no journey - there only seems to be a journey to the thinking, assessing mind. Stopping thoughts, maybe kind of nice; being (not becoming) what we always already are and living it, that's zen to me. See, how can you get what you already are?

Gassho

[Joyo]

Hi Sam,

I agree with Amelia, don't be discouraged - our teachers actually mean it well.

Just stop analyzing your zazen, don't think about it. Man, that's actually the beauty of it - finally doing nothing. Let the chattering in your head come and let it go. Don't supress, but don't cling either.
It's a bit like riding a bike. You don't analyze all the time where to shift your weight in order to keep balance.
Just do it, just do it, just do it - and then it actually sits you! No you, no sitting, just pure being. Yet all there is is sitting.

I remember something Abott Muho from Antaiji once said in a German documentary:
"You must be willing to die on the cushion."

Don't take that quote literally, it is neither about the amount of practice nor about the length of sittings. Ponder a bit on these words.

I know you've probably heard it thousands of times here, but is so important:
Drop everything, drop yourself, and just BE. And then being and doing become one.

And as Taigu said in one of his videos (can't remember which one):
"Simple, yet difficult."

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and be easy on yourself.

Gassho,

Timo

Thank you for the excellent reminder, Timo! I have been frustrated with my meditation lately. My mind races, just races and races. I see the clear blue sky, somewhere in the distance, but the racing mind makes it very difficult. But, your words help to let go of the frustration and just let it be. My mind works very fast all day long, I am constantly thinking and analyzing things. Perhaps if I start letting this go, not just during zazen, but throughout the day, it will help everything to just slow right down.

Gassho,
Treena

[shikantazen]

Thanks Jundo and Alan.

Just wanted to share something that I found on internet similar to the counting method I am describing. I have underlined the piece that talks about a method similar. The best way though seems to be not to use any toys as Taigu and Jundo have advised.

Issues that may arise in the practice:

Compulsive thoughts: the question often arises ‘In just sitting, should we use any kind of antidote to quieten the thoughts down?’ I think there are two main ways to approach this. The ‘strict’ answer is that if we just sit in an alert posture with the intention to be in awareness of whatever arises, the awareness itself will eventually have the effect of quietening the thinking. If you have the patience to allow things to take their course in this way, you can learn some important lessons about yourself and the way your mind works.

However, if you decide the thinking is too much for you, I think it’s quite acceptable initially to apply a very subtle ‘antidote’ within the spirit of just sitting, e.g. to gently ‘bring your awareness back’ to the present moment, again and again. This will probably have the effect of breaking up the stream of thoughts. A slightly less subtle approach is to say ‘thinking’ to yourself, whenever you notice thoughts are occurring. The label isn’t used as a blunt instrument to hammer the thoughts away! Thoughts occur quite naturally and don’t need to be suppressed. Labelling in this way just helps keep you present to what is arising now, but streams of thoughts tend to quieten down and become less intrusive. A more ‘interactive’ approach still is to ‘repeat’ the thought you have just had, e.g. if you notice you were thinking ‘how much longer this meditation is going to go on for?’ you repeat to yourself ‘thinking “how much longer this meditation is going to go on for?”’ Doing this for a while (I wouldn’t recommend doing it all the time) can give a very useful ‘feedback’ on exactly what you are thinking about, what is ‘coming up’, as well as tending to quieten the compulsive thoughts down.

‘Vegging out’ Another concern about the formless approach is that you will just enter a vague, vegetative mental state – sort of spacing out. This can happen. The best way of avoiding it is to set up and maintain awareness of your alert posture and body-experience. Have a sense of your centre of gravity in the ‘hara’ area (2 finger widths below navel). Sometimes it helps to have or keep the eyes open, sometimes (if you notice ‘vegging’ happening when the eyes are open) it can help to close the eyes.

[Jundo]

Thank you for the excellent reminder, Timo! I have been frustrated with my meditation lately. My mind races, just races and races. I see the clear blue sky, somewhere in the distance, but the racing mind makes it very difficult. But, your words help to let go of the frustration and just let it be. My mind works very fast all day long, I am constantly thinking and analyzing things. Perhaps if I start letting this go, not just during zazen, but throughout the day, it will help everything to just slow right down.

Gassho,
Treena

Just sit as if a stone, a mountain, a tree. A stone does not worry about tomorrow's laundry or the mortgage to be paid. A mountain does not feel inferior for being smaller than the next mountain, or worry what time of day it is. A tree points to the sun and grows with the rain, yet does not "fear" a lack of sun or rain or the woodman's axe. For the minutes you are sitting, sit pretending you are like a stone, a mountain or a tree. Sit as a mirror which does not react to whatever appears before and in it.

Of course, someone always reminds me that human beings are not rocks, mountains or trees! We need to get work done, make judgments, plan for tomorrow, learn from the past, have dreams and goals. Sure! I do not want truly to be like a rock or a pine. I am a sentient being, a human being and glad I am not some piece of granite or glass.

The wonderful aspect of this Practice is that we can have our "Buddha-cake and eat it too", be both seemingly different ways at once. So, rising from the sitting cushion, we can be human beings and stones or trees at once. Thus, we can have "places we need to go, things to do" AND "no place in need of going, nothing more in need of doing" attitudes AT ONCE. We can make judgements and drop all judgements AT ONCE, have things we dislike and be "cool with it all" AT ONCE. We can plan for tomorrow and drop all thought of time AT ONCE! Goals and plans and goalless AT ONCE!

See how that works? Like living, breathing rocks with warm hearts, trees with legs and complicated brains.

Gassho, J

[Mp]

Thank you Jundo ... I have always found the stone/tree analogy to be very helpful when the mind becomes busy.

Gassho
Shingen

[Jundo]

Hi Sam,

I do not know Tejananda, the Dogzhen teacher who wrote that. You sure do like to look in Italian cookbooks to find out how to cook French food! I find that what Tejananda is discussing is close, but not quite the same.

We also recommend a few minutes of following the breath when one is really really really tangled in thought, but then encourage folks to put that away and return to "just sitting" focused on everything and nothing in particular, sitting like a mirror or rock which pays "no nevermind". Look here:

I recommend such practices only as temporary measures for true beginners with no experience of how to let the mind calm at all, or others on those sometime days when the mind really, really, really is upset and disturbed. AS SOON AS the mind settles a bit, I advise the we return our attention to “the clear, blue, spacious sky that holds all“, letting clouds of thought and emotion drift from mind, focused on what can be called “everything, and nothing at all” or “no place and everyplace at once.”

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7695-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%28Part-XI%29

However, that is simply like the case of someone who is learning to swim, or momentarily gets flustered, and starts to drown for a second. You might haul them out of the pool for a minute, give them a towel, let them calm down and have a "breather" before letting them get back in the water. Only for use in cases where someone really can't relax and settle down (can't find their inner mountain, tree or stone). But once you get the hang of it, swimming and splashing in the pool is child's play, as easy as relaxing and floating along.

In fact, the more one struggles, thinks about it or analyzes (Tejananda says to "kick first then breathe and move my left hand" but Maezumi says to "focus on the right hand") instead of just swimming, the harder it gets.

Gassho, J

[Joyo]

Thank you, I will give that a try. My mind is busy all the time, I'm pretty sure that's why I struggle with meditation so much. I hope this helps, it gets discouraging that I cannot rest my mind, especially while sitting.

Gassho

[Jundo]

Thank you, I will give that a try. My mind is busy all the time, I'm pretty sure that's why I struggle with meditation so much. I hope this helps, it gets discouraging that I cannot rest my mind, especially while sitting.

Gassho

Emmy,

Imagine that during Zazen you start thinking about the piles of laundry you have to do. The problem is not the thoughts, as much as you being bothered by the thoughts, then grabbing on to them, letting them lead you into thinking about the laundry**, playing with them and getting tangled. Just let thoughts be, let them come and go, and pay 'em "no nevermind". If thoughts of laundry come, just have the attitude "I will think about the laundry after Zazen, right now is Zazen time". The laundry will generally wait a few minutes to be thought about. *** Now is "vacation from laundry" time while sitting.

** Substitute any thought about anything in life for "laundry" I mention here, and you will get my point.

Neither try to stop the thoughts nor worry about the thoughts. Ignore them, let em be, like one sometimes ignores a child having a tantrum (because paying attention sometimes just feeds the tantrum). Stay cool, and the child will usually settle down on his own when realizing the tantrum is not getting attention.

Likewise, although we do not try to calm the thoughts (let alone stop the thoughts!), the thoughts too will tend to naturally settle, clear, become translucent because you didn't play their game, didn't pay them no attention. You may actually experience a very enlightened state in which (1) there is a pile of smelly laundry to do and which you are thinking about and (2) there is no laundry, no "clean vs dirty" ... AT ONCE! (A Buddha never has "dirty robes", and they are always pure, even when torn, sweaty or covered with curry stains from lunch and all that walking across India! )

Your (1) having thoughts about the laundry and (2) being bothered by and jumping on to having thoughts about the laundry (suddenly thinking what soap to use, then what time is the best time to do it, then whether you have pants for tomorrow etc. etc. ... one thought leading to the next) ... are not the same thing. Even if laundry (or some other) thoughts come, just pay the laundry no nevermind for the little "vacation from laundry" time you are sitting.

Rocks and trees do not worry about getting their laundry done! Mirrors reflect piles of dirty laundry sitting before them without rendering any judgment.

Later, rising from the cushion, you may learn how to "do the laundry" and experience "no laundry in need of doing" AT ONCE!

Gassho, J

PS

*** If the thought, however, is "pile laundry is one fire" or "baby is about to jump into the dryer" that is different. You have my okay to momentarily break off Zazen, put out fire or rescue baby ... then resume sitting.

[alan.r]

Just sit as if a stone, a mountain, a tree. A stone does not worry about tomorrow's laundry or the mortgage to be paid. A mountain does not feel inferior for being smaller than the next mountain, or worry what time of day it is. A tree points to the sun and grows with the rain, yet does not "fear" a lack of sun or rain or the woodman's axe. For the minutes you are sitting, sit pretending you are like a stone, a mountain or a tree.

Of course, someone always reminds me that human beings are not rocks, mountains or trees! We need to get work done, make judgments, plan for tomorrow, learn from the past, have dreams and goals. Sure! I do not want truly to be like a rock or a pine. I am a sentient being, a human being and glad I am not some piece of granite.

The wonderful aspect of this Practice is that we can have our "Buddha-cake and eat it too", be both seemingly different ways at once. So, rising from the sitting cushion, we can be human beings and stones or trees at once. Thus, we can have "places we need to go, things to do" AND "no place in need of going, nothing more in need of doing" attitudes AT ONCE. We can make judgements and drop all judgements AT ONCE, have things we dislike and be "cool with it all" AT ONCE. We can plan for tomorrow and drop all thought of time AT ONCE! Goals and plans and goalless AT ONCE!

See how that works? Like living, breathing rocks with warm hearts, trees with legs and complicated brains.

Gassho, J

Big thank you for this.

[shikantazen]

Emmy,

Imagine that during Zazen you start thinking about the piles of laundry you have to do. The problem is not the thoughts, as much as you being bothered by the thoughts, then grabbing on to them, letting them lead you into thinking about the laundry**, playing with them and getting tangled. Just let thoughts be, let them come and go, and pay 'em "no nevermind". If thoughts of laundry come, just have the attitude "I will think about the laundry after Zazen, right now is Zazen time". The laundry will generally wait a few minutes to be thought about. *** Now is "vacation from laundry" time while sitting.

** Substitute any thought about anything in life for "laundry" I mention here, and you will get my point.

Neither try to stop the thoughts nor worry about the thoughts. Ignore them, let em be....

Hi Jundo,

Thanks for that explanation. The problem is this. For a beginner like me, it is not easy to ignore and let thoughts come and go. I find that I easily grab onto thoughts and realize only after a while that I have been caught up. This is the most common scenario during my Zazen. The scenario of letting thoughts come and go is very rare. I don't know about Emmy but I think this is the most common case for all beginners. Getting caught up in loops of thoughts.

What is your advice for this case? When I realize, I'm getting caught up in a thought-stream, what do I do? Just sit with that? Or count breaths? Or do something else?

- Sam