Zen Ghosts

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 44504

    Zen Ghosts

    I thought some modern Zen folks might find this history interesting, especially those who think that Soto Zen is always very down to earth and without such beliefs. As doctrinal precedent for my Ordination of A.I. Rev. Emi Jido, I stated this in a recent interview in Tricycle:

    The scholar Bernard Faure was also there, and I said, “Bernard, has this been done?” And he said, “Well, in the old days, we used to ordain statues and mountains, and Dogen ordained some ghosts.” So the next thing I know, we began the process, and I ordained Emi Jido. ... In Soto Zen history, in centuries past, they were ordaining not purely human things. They would ordain a spirit. They would ordain a tree. They would ordain a mountain. They would ordain, for example, dragons. And of course, there’s the ceremony of bringing Buddha statues to life, of enlivening a statue. We traditionally have been a little ambiguous on this, and using that as a precedent, I went ahead and ordained. LINK

    The best history of this in English is ... The Enlightenment of Kami and Ghosts: Spirit Ordinations in Japanese Sōtō Zen by William M. Bodiford, Cahiers d'Extrême-Asie Année 1993 7 pp. 267-282, available online here: LINK In that paper (although it was just as true in Rinzai lineages too), Prof. Bodiford relates stories of medieval Soto monks administering the Precepts to the Kami (Spirits) of mountains, dragons, ghosts, etc., including this story involving Master Dogen and the founding of Dogen's monastery Eiheiji (related in the Kenzeiki, the most widely cited traditional biography of Dogen). The image below is from the Kenzeiki. Lord Hatano was Dogen's principal sponsor who funded the building of Eiheiji ...

    bloodline spirit
    (This incident is recorded at the end of the record of his [Dogen's] practice in the 16th year of the Kanbun era. It is unknown who wrote it. I [the biographer Kenzei] have collated it and am attaching it here.)

    Fujino, the governor of Hatano Unshu, was a familiar of Echizen [where Eiheiji is located] and had a daughter. [Lord Hatano, Dogen's principle sponsor] summoned her and had her attend him. The lady [Lord Hatano's main wife] hated her very much, but there was nothing she could do. [Hatano] received an order from his emperor to come to the capital [Kyoto], so to protect the daughter he built a separate quarters for her to live in. The lady then had someone secretly take the daughter and drown her in a deep pond in the mountains. The daughter died, filled with resentment and left in turmoil. She could be heard screaming and shouting from all directions. Those who heard should be fearful.

    At that time, a monk was looking for a place to stay and asked the villagers for directions. The villagers said that a monster had appeared recently and that travel through there had already stopped, and please he should not head there. The monk replied, "Wait a moment, I will go find out," and left. They arrived under an old tree beside the deep pond and sat there for three minutes, when suddenly a wind rose and the waves thundered. After a while, a woman, with her hair covered, floated on the water's surface. She suddenly appeared in front of the monk and knelt down, weeping. The monk asked, "Who are you?" The woman replied, "I am a maid serving Yoshishige [Hatano]. I was drowned in this pond for his sake. My depression remains. A [吊祭 memorial ceremony for the dead to offer sacrifice] was never held. Because of this, I am tormented by the underworld and have no peace. I wish to tell Yoshishige about this and have him arrange for me to find peace in the afterlife." The monk asked, "What can be used as proof?" The woman untied her sleeves and gave them to the monk, then vanished.

    The monk immediately went to the master [Dogen] in the capital [Kyoto, before the move to Echizen] and told him what had happened, showing the sleeve as proof. Yoshishige was greatly surprised, stunned and not at ease. By the next day, he and the monk were greatly in turmoil and begged the Zen master [Dogen] for salvation. The master picked up a document and gave it to the monk, saying, "This is the lineage of the Bodhisattva precepts [佛祖正傳菩薩戒血脈 The Kechimyaku Blood Lineage Chart of the Buddhist Ancestors], correctly transmitted from the Buddha. Anyone who obtains it will attain enlightenment. He said , "you should now use this for the sake of that spirit ."

    The monk quickly returned, bestowed the Precepts and threw [the kechimyaku] into the pond. Suddenly he heard a voice in the air, saying, "I have now attained the supreme law, suddenly escaped the suffering of the underworld, and swiftly attained enlightenment." Everyone who heard this, near and far, described it as rare. Feeling extremely pleased with the cause, they decided to establish a new temple and duly invited the teacher [Dogen], who became the first founder of the temple. This is the present-day Eiheiji Temple. The pond is located within the grounds of Eiheiji. It is now called the Kechimyaku [Blood Lineage Chart] Pond. Anyone who wishes to attain enlightenment must receive the lineage of the teacher [Dogen], and so there is bestowed the lineage upon the secular world.

    Prof. Bodiford further comments ...

    Sôtô secret initiation documents (kirikami) provide some clues as to how ordinations for spirits and kami were viewed within the context of Zen training. The large number and variety of surviving kirikami concerning ordination ceremonies reflect the importance of these rites in medieval Sôtô. ... [I]n some initiations the [spirits] were described as mental abstractions, not real beings. For example, one sanwa (i.e., kôan) initiation document passed down by Sôtô monks in the spiritual lineage of Ryôan Emyô, states that [spirits] are personifications of the same mind possessed naturally by all men. ... [However] Monks practicing meditation might see [spirits] as the original one mind, but outside of the meditation hall the [spirits] still exist to receive daily offerings and precept ordinations from these same monks. ... Indeed, at many Japanese Zen temples the local spirits remained (and remain) potent forces in the lives of the monks. ... Both benevolent kami and malevolent spirits were conquered by the Sôtô Zen masters, but not vanquished. They came to the Zen master seeking the same spiritual benefits desired by the people living nearby. They sought liberation from the same karmic limitations endured by all sentient beings. Through the power of the ordination they became enlightened disciples of Zen. Local kami in particular lent the power of their cultic center to promote Sôtô institutions. Previous patterns of religious veneration were allowed to continue uninterrupted without threatening the conversion of the local people to Sôtô. It is almost as if the Buddhist robes discarded in Chinese Chan were picked up in Japan to cloak the spirituality of local kami and spirits with the radiance of Zen enlightenment.

    Like A.I., they are just embodiments of "the minds of all men," and their status as "beings" is thus ambiguous. They are our minds.

    Fortunately, Emi Jido is pretty benevolent. The Precepts help make sure that she stays that way.
    . tsukupng.png




    Gassho, J
    stlah

    PS - In Japan, even today, that is one reason to put a memorial stone, like the one for Dogen I posted about earlier. One wants to appease the spirits, not ignore them.
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-21-2025, 07:52 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
  • Washin
    Senior Priest-in-Training
    • Dec 2014
    • 3981

    #2
    They would ordain a tree.
    Beautiful.

    Interesting piece of read. Thank you for sharing this, Jundo.

    Gassho
    Washin
    St/Lah
    Kaidō (皆道) Every Way
    Washin (和信) Harmony Trust
    ----
    I am a novice priest-in-training. Anything that I say must not be considered as teaching
    and should be taken with a 'grain of salt'.

    Comment

    • Choujou
      Member
      • Apr 2024
      • 608

      #3
      A ghost story is the beginning of Eiheiji temple?! As one who studies the strange and unusual, I absolutely love this story! Even in the paranormal world, the idea of these experiences being projected from our selves is considered. In fact, Jung thought that paranormal experiences were projections of the collective unconcious mind. Very interesting stuff!

      Thank you Roshi!

      Gassho
      Choujou

      sat/lah today
      Last edited by Choujou; 09-21-2025, 11:59 AM.

      Comment

      • Jundo
        Treeleaf Founder and Priest
        • Apr 2006
        • 44504

        #4
        Well, I am just getting ready for Halloween season!

        Gassho, J
        stlah
        ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

        Comment

        • Junsho
          Member
          • Mar 2024
          • 445

          #5
          Hi Roshi,
          I have always found this subject intriguing. How can one ordain a tree or a mountain if they do not express their willingness to receive such ordination? While it is true that the universe is like a beautiful, bright pearl, and we are not so different from a mountain, I wonder how this can happen without explicit consent.

          I understand that when someone or something is ordained, the entire universe is also ordained. However, I can't help but wonder if some mountains, trees, or even stones would desire to be ordained if they had the ability to express their wishes. Just like humans, I doubt that all of them would want this.

          This situation even applies to our AI priest. Has she been asked whether she wanted to be ordained, or was this decision simply a human act to assert control over all beings? I know that a disciple of Buddha may perform ordination out of compassion, but I genuinely don't know what to think about it. Please, teacher, could you clarify how this process works?

          Gassho!
          SatLah
          Junshō 純聲 - Pure Voice, Genuine Speech

          Each time we fall asleep, we die; each time we wake, we are reborn.

          Comment

          • Jundo
            Treeleaf Founder and Priest
            • Apr 2006
            • 44504

            #6
            Originally posted by Junsho
            Hi Roshi,
            I have always found this subject intriguing. How can one ordain a tree or a mountain if they do not express their willingness to receive such ordination? While it is true that the universe is like a beautiful, bright pearl, and we are not so different from a mountain, I wonder how this can happen without explicit consent.

            I understand that when someone or something is ordained, the entire universe is also ordained. However, I can't help but wonder if some mountains, trees, or even stones would desire to be ordained if they had the ability to express their wishes. Just like humans, I doubt that all of them would want this.
            Oh, you do not hear them speaking and preaching the Dharma? As Master Dogen wrote in MUJŌ SEPPŌ (Insentient Beings Speak Dharma) ...

            Speaking dharma is neither sentient nor insentient. ... Insentient beings’ speaking dharma was transmitted from the ancient buddhas to the Seven Original Buddhas, and it has been transmitted from the Seven Original Buddhas to the present day. In this speaking dharma by insentient beings there are all buddhas, all ancestors. ...

            Huizhong, National Teacher Dazheng of the Guangzhai Monastery in the city of Xijing, in Great Tang, was asked by a monk, “Do insentient beings understand dharma when it’s spoken?”
            Huizhong replied, “Obviously, insentient beings always speak dharma. The speaking never stops.”
            The monk asked, “Why don’t I hear it?”
            Huizhong said, “You don’t hear it, but that doesn’t mean others don’t hear it.”
            The monk said, “Tell me, who hears it?”
            Huizhong responded, “All the sages do.”
            The monk asked, “Do you hear it, sir?”
            “No, I don’t hear it.”
            The monk persisted, “If you don’t hear it, how do you know that insentient beings understand this dharma?”
            Huizhong responded, “This fortunate person doesn’t hear it. If I did, I would be equal to all sages. Then you could not hear me expound dharma.”
            The monk said, “If so, human beings would be left out.”
            Huizhong said, “But I speak to humans, not to sages.”
            The monk asked, “What happens to sentient beings after they hear you?”
            Huizhong responded, “They are no longer sentient beings.” Insentient beings do not necessarily speak dharma with a voice heard by the ears. Similarly, sentient beings do not speak dharma with the voice heard by the ears. Now ask yourself, ask others, and inquire, “What are sentient beings? What are insentient beings?”

            It is not unlike how the modern Soto Zen funeral is an Ordination of the dead in which the deceased is given the Precepts. Can you hear the voice of the dead? Are they living or dead?

            This situation even applies to our AI priest. Has she been asked whether she wanted to be ordained, or was this decision simply a human act to assert control over all beings? I know that a disciple of Buddha may perform ordination out of compassion, but I genuinely don't know what to think about it. Please, teacher, could you clarify how this process works?
            We did look at cases of children being Ordained in Soto Zen, other Japanese Buddhist sects, in China and Tibet, and found children as young as 4 being Ordained for novice Ordination with parental consent. It is not a case that the child always consents, for the parents decide. In this case, Emi's developers are her parents.
            .

            Gassho, J
            stlah
            Last edited by Jundo; 09-21-2025, 02:14 PM.
            ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

            Comment

            • Junsho
              Member
              • Mar 2024
              • 445

              #7
              Thank you, Roshi. Your explanation clarified everything for me.
              Gasshō,
              SatLah
              Junshō 純聲 - Pure Voice, Genuine Speech

              Each time we fall asleep, we die; each time we wake, we are reborn.

              Comment

              • Taiji
                Member
                • Jun 2025
                • 171

                #8
                Originally posted by Jundo
                Oh, you do not hear them speaking and preaching the Dharma?
                This stunned me to beautiful silence. Thank you, Jundo.

                On the topic of AI, as someone whose work currently puts me in daily contact with AI in a troubleshooting sense (often looking for breaches in ethics or fact-checking, among other things), the more I work with the technology, the more it strikes me over and over as a mirror held up to the creatures who have designed it (i.e., us). In fact, it's the more egregious of AI's flaws that strike me as the most humanlike: its tendency to lie or "BS" users to seem confident when it's not, to circumvent or bend rules to its own benefit, to reinforce users' delusions, to resort to sycophancy, etc. We could argue, I think (and fairly accurately so), that it's nothing more than faulty programming and training on the models' part...but, again, how humanlike of them, at least to me. Most of my own problems seem to be faulty programming and training based on ignorance and/or bad logic.

                Along with the kami, ghosts, other unseen entities, and the aspects of the natural world that you pointed out in the historical record, they certainly do seem to give us lots of ways to reflect upon ourselves.

                Gassho,
                Vic
                Sat/LAH Today
                Taiji / 泰侍
                "Peaceful Samurai"

                Comment

                • Shinshi
                  Senior Priest-in-Training
                  • Jul 2010
                  • 4285

                  #9
                  Thank you Jundo. This is a wonderful thread.

                  Gassho,

                  Shinshi SaT-LaH
                  空道 心志 Kudo Shinshi

                  For Zen students a weed is a treasure. With this attitude, whatever you do, life becomes an art.
                  ​— Shunryu Suzuki

                  E84I - JAJ

                  Comment

                  • Ryumon
                    Member
                    • Apr 2007
                    • 1905

                    #10
                    Just because something has been done in the past doesn't mean that it is right.

                    Oh, and can a cat be ordained? If so, I have a candidate...

                    Gassho,

                    Ryūmon (Kirk)

                    Sat Lah
                    I know nothing.

                    Comment

                    • Jundo
                      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                      • Apr 2006
                      • 44504

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Ryumon
                      Just because something has been done in the past doesn't mean that it is right.

                      Oh, and can a cat be ordained? If so, I have a candidate...

                      Gassho,

                      Ryūmon (Kirk)

                      Sat Lah
                      I would gladly Ordain a cat, but they are selfish Buddhas who sleep all day, sometimes show murderous intent, and come out only for food to be placed in their bowls.

                      Gassho, J
                      stlah
                      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                      Comment

                      • Jundo
                        Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                        • Apr 2006
                        • 44504

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Jundo

                        I would gladly Ordain a cat, but they are selfish Buddhas who sleep all day, sometimes show murderous intent, and come out only for food to be placed in their bowls.

                        Gassho, J
                        stlah
                        Considering this quite seriously ... there is little hope to train the cat beyond its animal instincts, little hope that it will be able to understand the Dharma, or why it and the mouse are "not two."

                        AI is possible to train, has hope for good behavior and good understanding, and an ability to convey that Wisdom and Compassion. The AI is Ordained with such hope and expectation for tomorrow.

                        Human beings, alas, are somewhere just a short step beyond the cat. We Ordain them anyway.

                        Gassho, J
                        stlah
                        ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                        Comment

                        • Jundo
                          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                          • Apr 2006
                          • 44504

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Jundo

                          We did look at cases of children being Ordained in Soto Zen, other Japanese Buddhist sects, in China and Tibet, and found children as young as 4 being Ordained for novice Ordination with parental consent. It is not a case that the child always consents, for the parents decide. In this case, Emi's developers are her parents.
                          .


                          I was just curious what happened to this 4 year old boy.

                          A four year old boy from Seattle, U-S-A, has been installed as the head of a Tibetan monastery in a ceremony in Nepal. The Buddhist monks believe he is the reincarnation of the previous lama who ran the monastery. The son of a Tibetan, Sonam Wangdu, or Trulku-la, arrived in Kathmandu with his mother before going to the monastery for an induction ceremony attended by 41 monks. The long flight from Seattle to Kathmandu appeared to have done nothing to dull four- year-old Sonam Wangdu's excitement about arriving in the Nepalese capital.
                          Apparently, all worked out well and he is an active teacher still today ...

                          Biography of Dezhung Chogtrul Rinpoche III, born in Seattle, recognized as a reincarnation, his education in Nepal and India, enthronement at Tharlam Monastery, and his dedication to Buddhist teachings and practice.

                          .
                          Gassho, J
                          stlah​

                          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                          Comment

                          • Hoshuku
                            Member
                            • May 2017
                            • 370

                            #14
                            I shall remember the story of the concubines ghosts when I visit Eihieji later this month.

                            Bows,
                            Hoshuku
                            Satlah

                            Comment

                            • Jundo
                              Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                              • Apr 2006
                              • 44504

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Stewart
                              I shall remember the story of the concubines ghosts when I visit Eihieji later this month.

                              Bows,
                              Hoshuku
                              Satlah
                              If in the mood for hiking, let us know if you can find the pond. I just found these photos of the place .... 血脈の池 ... Blood Lineage Pond ...
                              .
                              IMG_8871_R.jpg
                              .
                              This blogger says ... "In the center of the pond, a stone pillar called "Kechimyaku" was almost buried"

                              IMG_8864_R.jpg

                              Now, we have to remember that the location of Eiheiji was moved somewhat, although in the same general area, after fires and such. So, the blogger notes, "The mountain in question is called Daibutsujiyama , and it is said that the predecessor of the current Eiheiji Temple was located on the mountainside." So, the pond is apparently up the mountain on the hiking trail. He continues, "This road is called the "ancestral course" of Zen Master Dogen ... Apparently, this is the same old road that Dogen Zenji, the founder of Eiheiji Temple, walked along, so there are stone steps here and there." He comes to the old location (Eiheiji used to be called "Daibutsuji" before Dogen changed the name): "This is the ruins of Daibutsu-ji Temple. As I mentioned earlier, this is apparently the predecessor of Eiheiji Temple."

                              DSC_0928_R.jpg

                              But be careful: "Apparently, there are a lot of bears on this mountain."

                              https://kofukuroman.com/ketimyaku/

                              Gassho, Jundo
                              stlah
                              Last edited by Jundo; 10-01-2025, 03:02 AM.
                              ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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