Great Doubt, or "The Question"

[alan.r]

I appreciate this post greatly, although it's disconcerting that it still appears I'm flinging shit when I'm trying so hard to be mindful enough to not come across that way.

Chet

Hey man, I didn't think you were flinging shit at all. We're all bringing some veiwpoints and we're all trying to cut through the poo, which is collectively ours - and it's on both "sides". So, I'd say it's less shit slinging, then neatly putting it in boxes and saying, "Okay, that's not necessary so let's throw it away now," which is a pretty gross metaphor but whatevs. I guess ultimately we want to stop playing with shit, but you know, better just sit the fuck up then.

Gassho,
a

PS. I'm cursing a lot. Sorry about that.

[disastermouse]

Chet,

I agree that Stephanie is trying to draw attention to something she thinks we may be missing. When I came to Treeleaf, and you know this well, I believed I was broken, empty, and less than adequate to being a valuable person...I still think that way, plenty. But studying here at Treeleaf I am slowly learning, with your help, Stephanie's help, and everyone else here that nothing is broken, nothing is inadequate, and nothing is missing. Now, taken to an extreme that could lead to a very large ego and self centeredness...and a belief in mantras or a room full of frames we buy in a gift shop with inspirational quotes from the Buddha or Dogen. But I don't believe I'm likely to forget those feelings since they never really go away. And for folks like me, sitting with the idea that nothing is lacking offers a great freedom, but also a responsibility.

Do not mistake our fellow sangha members saying that they do not agree with Stephanie to be dismissing what she has to say. It may be very profound and if it works for her I am most grateful! But I still see much of the cyclical thinking that Stephanie has always displayed, which she likes to call "Great Doubt", but I think is closer to the skeptical doubt she mentioned in her post. These questions will never end because they are designed to open packages, see what's inside, and move on to the next one. Again, and again, and again.

I know you are unlikely to agree with what I have said and offer a defense of Stephanie's post, but I do believe she is well intentioned. But I think her attempt to diagnose what is wrong with Treeleaf blinds her to the fact that she is constantly trying to answer what is wrong with herself. We have gladly taken her in here and asked her several times to go through jukai and fully put herself into what is taught here and actually we have asked the same of you. I truly feel that, until you both do that (assuming there is still a part of you that wants to) you will both be drifting from experience to experience trying to uncover truths that were right in front of you for years.

And, so you know, writing IMHO at the end of the post says to me that you think we don't trust your sincerity and need to create a shield from criticism. We trust you and know your are sincere...but sit, sew a rakusu with us, and take in what there is to be learned here. Many zen practioners go from one tradition to another as they mature...there's no reason you can't have a different way of looking at things. But until you immerse yourselves in that dissatisfaction you feel, I fear you will always be consumed by it.

Gassho,
Dosho

Dosho,

You're flirting with the idea that because Stephanie and I haven't taken Jukai, we are somehow less Buddhist or that our arguments have less weight. I think that's a very misleading idea. I haven't gone from one tradition to another - I'm just not much of a joiner and I don't know how much institutional Buddhism I want to absorb. I'm not sure I want to be a rebellious outsider either. I'm pretty comfortable with where I am in between these two places. That may change. It may not. I hope you can respect my decision either way, though - and weigh my input without taking my status in the sangha into consideration.

Chet

[Dosho]

Chet,

I am in no way suggesting that you are any less of a buddhist if you haven't taken jukai. Jukai is merely a public statement of that which already exists in your heart. So, I would never say or even go near such an assertion. And I was merely suggesting that if you were to take jukai here that it wouldn't mean you couldn't choose in the future to go to another tradition (just in case for some reason that was holding you back from participating with us). I can most certainly respect your decision...I just want to leave you with the possibility that not taking jukai is a sign that you aren't willing to completely trust in what Treeleaf represents or the sangha itself. And I wanted to dispell the idea, which I had no idea if it were true of you, that if you did "jump right in" you also had to swallow the water whole and without any criticism.

Gassho,
Dosho

Dosho,

You're flirting with the idea that because Stephanie and I haven't taken Jukai, we are somehow less Buddhist or that our arguments have less weight. I think that's a very misleading idea. I haven't gone from one tradition to another - I'm just not much of a joiner and I don't know how much institutional Buddhism I want to absorb. I'm not sure I want to be a rebellious outsider either. I'm pretty comfortable with where I am in between these two places. That may change. It may not. I hope you can respect my decision either way, though - and weigh my input without taking my status in the sangha into consideration.

Chet

[disastermouse]

Chet,

I am in no way suggesting that you are any less of a buddhist if you haven't taken jukai. Jukai is merely a public statement of that which already exists in your heart. So, I would never say or even go near such an assertion. And I was merely suggesting that if you were to take jukai here that it wouldn't mean you couldn't choose in the future to go to another tradition (just in case for some reason that was holding you back from participating with us). I can most certainly respect your decision...I just want to leave you with the possibility that not taking jukai is a sign that you aren't willing to completely trust in what Treeleaf represents or the sangha itself. And I wanted to dispell the idea, which I had no idea if it were true of you, that if you did "jump right in" you also had to swallow the water whole and without any criticism.

Gassho,
Dosho

Thank you! My reticence has to do with my own personal failures, and not so much the failures of the Sangha. Treeleaf is very dear to my heart and as uncommitted as I may seem, it's the only Sangha of which I'd ever say I'm a part.

Chet

[Dosho]

And if I in any way made you feel outside the sangha I do apologize...for me your status as a member of the sangha goes without saying.

Thank you! My reticence has to do with my own personal failures, and not so much the failures of the Sangha. Treeleaf is very dear to my heart and as uncommitted as I may seem, it's the only Sangha of which I'd ever say I'm a part.

Chet

[disastermouse]

And if I in any way made you feel outside the sangha I do apologize...for me your status as a member of the sangha goes without saying.

I've come to trust your intentions, Dosho.

[Heisoku]

I have a burning question.
It’s a question that’s burning,
Burning right through everything I do, say and think.
Right to the bit when it seems to burn out….but doesn’t quite.
It’s always burning.
My life is on fire and all I have is this burning question?

[Jinyo]

The difference is that all other religions offer something to pour into that sense of an original wound. Zen does not do this. In fact, there is no original wound at all, but you don't realize this without confronting the fact that it feels as though there is an original wound - that something is off-kilter. In fact, my understanding is that the literal image of the word 'samsara' is a wheel off true - that is, with the axle incorrectly placed. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all attempt to explain that in terms of a self-soul-ego. Even other schools of Buddhism attempt to do this. Zen, more than most other religions, resists the temptation to do this. That is a particular strength, in my opinion, of Zen. This is not to denigrate other religions or paths at all, but to point to something unique about Zen. If you strip from Zen the things that separates it from other paths, what is left of Zen? It's a very strange inclination to do that, I think.

Chet

Chet - I do understand what you say here - and I wouldn't want to strip from Zen the things that separate it from other paths either.

I don't think I'm going to be able to articulate this very well, but part of the process of my being here is that I've become more open to accepting other paths. I don't know where this is leading to - but I feel more able to re-confiigure my religious upbringing and the strong negative prejudices that came from that, in a way that I haven't been able to before.

There are a lot of strands in this thread - but am I right in thinking that the main point is the suggestion that 'something' is not being confronted within the teaching/practice here?

Gassho

Willow

[Yugen]

This whole notion of passivity to me seems to be a reflection of looking for things or looking for someone else to push or confront us when no one but ourselves can do the work. Teachers and sangha colleagues are no more, and can be no more than "good friends" who share the path with us and occasionally help us on the way.

Perceived passivity is often boredom looking for an external provocation or sparring partner to relieve the "great doubt" or existential angst that is before one - the external provocation in my mind is sought when there is an absence of "great faith." that certainly has been my case... I often repeat the same old soundtrack or narrative in my life.

So I go looking for my zafu,
and wonder how many minutes of sitting have been occupied by this thread.

I learn a lot from Stephanie and Chet's posts, I'm really glad they are here, and am so grateful for the thoughtful discourse. I do not feel that I can speak as eloquently as my brothers or sisters but felt compelled to pitch in. Thanks for your patience.

Deep bows,
Yugen

[Jundo]

Hi All,

It is wonderful to have discussions such as this thread from time to time ... honest questionings, in this case, questioning each other, teachers, our selves, "Zen", about whether we are people who question.

Among so many Wise-Compassionate comments here, I highlight a few ...

... For me, the "still center" was and is letting go of my natural inclinations to rage against the storm or try to find shelter.

Yes, Shikantaza. The Bodhisattva Virtue of "Equanimity", even as there are simultaneously things to question, scars which ache, and problems to solve. Clarity, both when things are clear or confused. Being in the storm which often knocks us over, resisting and trying to fight the storm, questioning the whys of the storm ... yet simultaneously not any of that in the least, and no storm.

Lastly, here’s a suspicion of my own: while some people at Treeleaf discuss their personal lives, most of us don’t do this very openly (I don’t mean this negatively). I mean, we all kind of use abstracts, to some degree, and it’s rare when any of us really gets into the details, the real details of our lives ...

Without breaking confidences, people write me privately almost each day about (and many post directly in this Forum and discuss openly too) cancer diagnosis, unbearable depression, scars of violent child abuse in their past, having killed someone years ago, hidden doubts about self worth, struggles with sexuality, shames they have never even told their spouse. The "Zen answer" in all cases has to be ... let it go, let it be. Let the past go, let the future come. Just Sit Now ... even as you sit with/as/through the questions, pain, scars. Moan and cry and question too if you need (we are not cold stones or machines in our neck of the Buddhist woods) ... for to do so is a moaning, crying, questioning Buddha.

Sometimes "let it go, let it be" actually makes the problems vanish POOF! Other times, not ... any more than Zazen will fix a bad tooth (you need a dentist for that, or to pull it out yourself, or just live with it), Nonetheless, in all cases the Buddha will still be there to say "let it go, let it be" even as you seek a solution or when there is not solution. For those toothaches or cancers or emotional scars that cannot be healed and remain ... the Buddha will still say "let it go, let it be", even as we moan and cry and question.

It is good and natural ... human ... to constantly question why these things are, why life is the way it is. I do every day. However, we are not "Oprah", and while we face head-on the cancer, depression, child abuse and all the rest ... we Zen folks refuse to wallow in pity parties, self made soap operas, "she said he said" rights and wrong mental debates, whirlpools of thoughts. There is a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE between honest/straight on/facing-questioning ... and mental games and wallowing.

The Rinzai folks who push through the questions, the Soto folks who "just sit as" the questions, the Vipassana or Tibetan folks who have various approaches to deconstructing the questions, the Pure Land folks who chant their questions to Amida ... all aim for that Clear, Whole "Just Go, Just Be" amid the shitstorm of Samsara.

When I sit, I sit right in the heart of my questions, and as the questions.

The best way of investigating the nature of the wound in my experience, is to investigate your self before the wound, your original nature. When you know what it feels like when the wound is instantly healed, the body made whole again, you also recognize the wound.

Thank you, Doctor. Sometimes the best way to treat wounds is to open them and clean them out. Sometimes we accept the wounds that cannot be healed. In all cases we see that Original Nature which can never be wounded from the start! But we do -not- pick and scratch with dirty little (mental) fingers, because that keeps the wound alive and red. Zen Practice has tools for all such treatments-non-treatments.

... I still see much of the cyclical thinking ... These questions will never end because they are designed to open packages, see what's inside, and move on to the next one. Again, and again, and again.

This is true for all of us. The toughest thing about this Practice is that people truly don't know how to radically, to the marrow sit still ... yield, put down the search and the questions and the constant need to chase after the next thing and the next, to drop all lack, to stop running after the shiniest new "book of answers" or gadget on Amazon, to stop picking their wounds again and again ...

... thereby to find that Real Treasure here all along.

This whole notion of passivity to me seems to be a reflection of looking for things or looking for someone else to push or confront us when no one but ourselves can do the work. Teachers and sangha colleagues are no more, and can be no more than "good friends" who share the path with us and occasionally help us on the way.

Perceived passivity is often boredom looking for an external provocation or sparring partner to relieve the "great doubt" or existential angst that is before one - the external provocation in my mind is sought when there is an absence of "great faith." that certainly has been my case... I often repeat the same old soundtrack or narrative in my life.

And one more thing ...

Treeleaf is very dear to my heart and as uncommitted as I may seem, it's the only Sangha of which I'd ever say I'm a part.

Thank you, Chet. Back at ya.

Jukai is not necessary to "be a Buddhist" or "be part of a Sangha", whatever that is. Only embracing and seeking to live by the Buddhist Teachings is what is really required, and joining in the Sangha family in one's heart.

Of course, like someone who just wants to live together for 20 years and not head to the wedding altar ... Is it truly not wanting to be "part of an institution", or just "lack of a willingness to dive in and commit"? Only the person can question that.

Gassho, J

[Jundo]

Here, by the way, is typical advice I have offered to victims of child abuse and rape. Even as we "let it be, let it go" and avoid many of the mental traps and snares, it is not some simple numbness or sweeping under the rug ...

-----------------------------------------


I hope that victims of child abuse or rape (the abused child or raped person) can learn to let the past go ... learn to see their abuser as himself a victim (of greed, anger and ignorance) ... move forward so that the violence does not repeat into the next generation. I hope that they come to see the real culprit as "greed, anger and ignorance." HOWEVER, I often also counsel that it is not so easy ... that there are real scars from these events, not all seen on the skin or easily healed. While letting the past go, trying to not fall into new anger ... one must sometimes also see the scar as the scar sometimes, recognize that it is natural to feel anger and resentment at the attacker ... even as one tries to forgive on some level, see the "real evil" on some level, not be trapped by the anger and resentment and let it go.

I have counseled some victims of child abuse, for example, that ... yes ... from one perspective, we need to forgive and let the past go and understand that the person who did this was filled with greed, anger, violence. From another perspective, we also need to recognize that the scars are there, that the person may need to pay a debt for what they have done. Even recognizing our own natural anger at the past is fine ... for it is natural to feel resentment (so long as we do not become its slave). But in any event, the most important thing is not to carry the anger, resentment, abuse etc. into future generations where it will effect our children and coming generations.

Counseling and support groups can greatly aid those who are victims of trauma, hand in hand with Zen practice.

[Jinyo]

Jundo - and all who have participated in this thread -

Willow

[Mp]

Jundo - and all who have participated in this thread -

Willow

I agree! I have not said much in this thread, but I have been reading every word that has been said. Thank you ALL for putting it out there.

Gassho
Michael

[galen]

Hitting home. Thank you, Jundo.

[Geika]

Pretty interesting articles really, and I recommend everybody at Treeleaf read them.

They are interesting. I enjoyed them.

I mean, I don’t know you Stephanie and it seems you’ve “found” something really great for you, or whatever (I can never phrase these things well enough, apologies), but the strategies of the post and the overall purposes of it, which seem complex to me, seem suspect and worth raising at least a tiny other perspective.

It doesn't seem to me, from reading the post, that Stephanie has found anything, religious or otherwise. I don't mean this to say that she is lacking in anything. I mean this to say that I didn't get that vibe from the post. The vibe I got was that she is caught in some sort of loop of thinking. Apologies if I have missed the mark.

Further, who wants to read a bunch of stuff about how we’ve all suffered, really suffered, and here are the details of it, and how now we’re in the light, whatever light that might be – frankly, most suffering, unless you’re a really talented writer, is actually pretty banal stuff, and is mainly self-imposed (again, I could very well be wrong here, but that was my experience of “darkness,” years and years of it, and even in the midst of years and years of it, that always nagging thought, feeling, perception: “am I just pretending somehow?”).

I agree. All the years that I felt so different and tortured were really self-inflicted and wrought with narcissism. Yes, I am different from most people, but I don't have to force the point or even really think about it too much. Stephanie, I am in no way trying to imply that you are doing the same. I am merely sharing my experience.

The difference is that all other religions offer something to pour into that sense of an original wound. Zen does not do this. In fact, there is no original wound at all, but you don't realize this without confronting the fact that it feels as though there is an original wound - that something is off-kilter. In fact, my understanding is that the literal image of the word 'samsara' is a wheel off true - that is, with the axle incorrectly placed.

I like that. It makes sense to me.

You're flirting with the idea that because Stephanie and I haven't taken Jukai, we are somehow less Buddhist or that our arguments have less weight.

I know this minor bump was smoothed between you and Dosho, but I would like to mention that I resisted the hell out of Jukai at first-- not to imply that you need to do it-- but then came out better for it. I can't speak for you, but for me, the things I resist the most are usually very good for me. This could be about anything from Jukai to quitting smoking.

Something I find interesting is that Stephanie left us with that post and has not joined in the discussion she started. It is like throwing a word grenade in a room where we all happen to be standing and then running away, leaving us to sort out the details we can't know because we are not her.