Zen Equivilant to "God's Will"

[disastermouse]

Chet.

There is an essential side to the Buddha Dharma that many people would prefer to forget. It is the “devotional” side. Without it we never take off our suit of armored intelligence. Opening to a teacher is not easy. It is literally heartbreaking..... but it is an essential part of “the unshakable liberation of the heart”. There has been only one teacher up until now who I opened up to unconditionally, and it was completely life changing.. and opening up, being naked with teachers, is an ongoing process for me, and still not easy. A lot of people remain too clever and cheat themselves, and remain suited up in armor. Don't be so sure...

I wasn't trying to argue my point forcefully, Kojip. Perhaps I failed at that. I don't want to hold 'teacher' or 'no teacher' too forcefully. Your gentle admonition has been heard. This practice is such a weird and delicate dance, isn't it? There's not very much like it. I do tend to err on the side of independence, myself.

[Rich]

Buddha had no teacher.

Actually Buddha had many teachers. After he left home he studied and practiced with some of the greatest teachers in northern India. There are also some that say he may have studied at the university at Taxila because that's where most nobles' sons went during that period.

In a sense everyone and everything is our teacher. Deep gratitude to all the teachers here.

Let go and let God. Ultimately I don't think the syntax matters.

Just curious, what is your practice?

[SyntaxJO]

There is a memory I have, this freedom that I find, of course, is forgotten, and is mostly a memory. A memory of knowing all is right. A memory of knowing that I'd forget it. A memory of knowing I need to sit my ass down on the cushion. Thank God for these memories. Even in the midst of complacency, doubt, and boredom it's these memories that remind me to keep going. It's just the memory of pure experience. Yea, it's fucking giddy awesome! So, remembering that zazen is paramount, I had my computer in the shop for 7 days, I'm in Bali, alone, and I thought "Hey, it's time for that retreat." 7 day retreat, very lite schedule, but a schedule none the less. Lots of noise around: dogs, kids, motorbikes, bassy music, temple drums. That annoyance is slowly passing (a big one too, noise is a pet peeve). The people I'm renting the house from have stopped sending the cleaning crew, they do still come in to give the offerings, but I'm usually sitting when they come so it's awe good. The same people also have me write what I need from the store on a piece of paper, so when they come to give the offerings they grab the sheet and a bag of stuff arrives a few hours later. How did I get so lucky?

So, I may be on edge. This is my first sesshin on my own and one longer than a couple days. For what it's worth, I am now turning my attention to what it is that gets me going on these boards. Who is it that is riled up?

It's a great point you make, Chet, pick-pocket sees only your pockets. And on to your point, Kojip, finding the right teacher is hard. I think it is a trust thing. It's a shame that when I hear "Zen stuff," I immediately turn off. I've been told so many things, by so many different people, in so many different ways, in so many different contradictions. Yes outside of Zen, but within Zen also. I always distrust someone who just starts giving you sage advice or cryptic warning. I've bought into it too many times. Actually, the problem is, I can be too trusting.

I also am focusing on why people on the boards can't make a translation of my God question into Zen as easily as I'd thought they'd be able to. It has slightly taken me out of my current fixation on what Zen is. This is a good thing.

Jundo subtly told me to see a shrink? I'm kind of laughing right now; do you mean he was saying I should see one even if I don't have a medical condition? Is it that effing bad? I actually chortled there (I'm serious). Funny enough, I've had a couple teachers in school that would suggest therapy. I've been to actual shrinks twice; once in grade school, once in high school. On both occasions they "set me free" in a month or so because I was dubbed "healthy." Personally, I enjoyed it very much. You can talk about what you want and sometimes they are genuinely into what you're saying! If Jundo wants to pay for it, I'm game! And I'm not a psychopath, I cried at E.T.

Rich, my man, my name is Jordan, and my practice is shikantaza! And with Buddha, there was some point when he said "enough with the teachers!", and sat his ass down.

[Jundo]

Hi,

I want to apologize to Jordan for two things due to misreading his postings here, and at ZFI, late last night with tired eyes.

First, I originally read this simply as someone describing a peak experience, or that God was "speaking to them" ... and rereading it today I see that it was not that at all. Your question was much more subtle and any "peak" sensations secondary. The descriptions my eyes saw were not quite there the next morning.

Second, I said that we have to be cautious because "hearing God" or a "giddy" religious experience can sometimes be due to smoking the wacky tobaccy, or some medical or psychological condition, and we need to rule that out in all such cases first. I was only speaking in general terms, for anyone who is "hearing voices" or the like, and I did not mean it to sound like I was referring specifically to Jordan. I was not, and meant that it is the first thing to rule out in any such case. Valid point, but I said it badly.

However, I think that the rest of the post I wrote is pretty good advice, and I will stick with it.

At least since William James wrote the "Varieties of Religious Experience" in the 19th century, folks have argued for a common mystical ground in all religions, a feeling of being close to God or the Godhead. That is true for many flavors of Buddhism ... and of Zen Buddhism ... too. Some folks call it God or Allah, or Brahma or Amida Buddha ... and encounter that mystical sensation of "Let Thy Will Be Done". That is fine. Folks can practice Zen Buddhism and believe in God, Amida, etc.,

But many other flavors of Buddhism ... and Zen Buddhism ... allow a kind of "Let Thy Will Be Done" without any insistence on who/what/whatever "Thy" is. It is almost as if we Trust and Yield to reality so much, we simply do not insist on any name, image, location or description for what's what ... happily keeping "Don't Know Mind". It may seem counter-intuitive, but the result is not ignorance ... but rather the deep love, trust and knowing of a child looking out at the world without needing to fit it into any boxes, the willingness to yield and "knowing" of a lover who does not need to know every molecule or historical fact about her lover to feel deeply in love and to "know" the beloved. Something like that. Sentient Beings ... even enlightened ones who might catch a glimpse of the Great Unity and Interplay of All Things ... cannot know all there is to know about Buddha, God, Stanley, the Universe, What's Beyond the Universe, Reality, Whatever ... but we do not need to know, not even what to call "it". We know "all" by just seeing what is in front of our eyes ... fetching watch, chopping wood. It is a bit like one can know the sea ... not by knowing every wave or ounce of water or every turn of the map of coastline ... but simply by knowing thoroughly the taste of salty brine of the single tiny drop on one's tongue right now.

Does that make sense?

So, feel God and yield to Her Will ... or just live in Peace and Allowing. Same Difference.

And if you are asking just about that "mystical feeling" of "feeling close to God or hearing that small small voice inside" ... many a Zen Teacher will yawn, fart, and tell you to get back to chopping wood and paying the bills! I am one of those. Life is so much more than just than "seeing God" or "feeling Buddha", even if many religions preach that that's the Golden Ring. Farts are much more tangible and immediate, and if there is a god ... farts are god too.

Gassho, J

PS - Yes, I still think anyone sitting long isolated retreats, and having very strong sensations or experiences as a result, should work with a good Teacher and community. It is playing with fire, and it is good to have a fire crew standing by.

[Rich]

Rich, my man, my name is Jordan, and my practice is shikantaza! And with Buddha, there was some point when he said "enough with the teachers!", and sat his ass down.

Actually he was sitting with ascetics and teachers for a long time before he went off on his own. So using the Buddhas teachings that have been transmitted to this very day here we are just sitting half a world apart. I have never done a solo retreat but some traditions encourage it. Usually they are silent. Do you think communicating here is just a way to escape the retreat?

[disastermouse]

This thread is very heartening. It could have been a confrontational, conflict-oriented thread but it has turned more into a conversation. Because of it, I now feel like I understand Jordan, Kojip, Jundo, and my own thoughts about these topics a bit better than I did...better than I expected.

Teachers and trust....I think that if you just hang around and interact here, a sort of trust will develop - both with the teachers and the sangha. In my case, it is a matter of being open to correction. My resistance and skepticism was hard-lost...but that's how the trust was born. I still don't really always toe the company line, but Jundo and Taigu stuck with me and I appreciate that.

So maybe your path is difficult and angular too, Jordan. There's room here for that too.

Gassho,

Chet

[Yugen]

Jordan,
Many of the dogmatic questions here - particularly the enquiry into the mystical and the relationship of God to the individual (the idea of God,the relationship of the individual to God, and the interaction of Eastern and Western philosophical systems) was the subject of much work in the first half of the twentieth century by the Kyoto School of philosophers. Kitaro Nishida and Keiji Nishitani looked quite a bit at Meister Eckhart and others.... I would recommend "An Enquiry Into the Good" and "Religion and Nothingness."

It's easy to say "focus on your practice" or respond "what has God got to do with it - go back to your cushion." In certain face-to-face practice situations a teacher may determine such a statement or provocation to be appropriate - in this forum I'll just say some pretty serious Zen people and philosophers have done some substantial and interesting work in the areas you describe.

In talking with Thomas Merton, Kitaro Nishida described God "as the spirit of unity at the center of the universe." now that we mention it, I'd recommend "Zen and the Birds of Appetite" by Thomas Merton.

Everyone we meet is a Buddha, a teacher to us.

Gassho
Yugen

[Jinyo]

Jordan,
Many of the dogmatic questions here - particularly the enquiry into the mystical and the relationship of God to the individual (the idea of God,the relationship of the individual to God, and the interaction of Eastern and Western philosophical systems) was the subject of much work in the first half of the twentieth century by the Kyoto School of philosophers. Kitaro Nishida and Keiji Nishitani looked quite a bit at Meister Eckhart and others.... I would recommend "An Enquiry Into the Good" and "Religion and Nothingness."

It's easy to say "focus on your practice" or respond "what has God got to do with it - go back to your cushion." In certain face-to-face practice situations a teacher may determine such a statement or provocation to be appropriate - in this forum I'll just say some pretty serious Zen people and philosophers have done some substantial and interesting work in the areas you describe.

In talking with Thomas Merton, Kitaro Nishida described God "as the spirit of unity at the center of the universe." now that we mention it, I'd recommend "Zen and the Birds of Appetite" by Thomas Merton.

Everyone we meet is a Buddha, a teacher to us.

Gassho
Yugen

Yugen - for this.

I feel like you have just given me yet another piece of the jigsaw puzzle - of course the picture that is emerging is in part of my
subjective making - but to blow the dust of my philosophy books that had seemed to lead to so many dead ends is invigorating.


I had no idea that Japanese philosophers had made such a vigorous study of Western philosophy and made their own imprint. Really looking forward to reading Nishida and Nishitani.


Thank you

Willow

[Yugen]

"I had no idea that Japanese philosophers had made such a vigorous study of Western philosophy and made their own imprint. Really looking forward to reading Nishida and Nishitani."

Hi Willow,
I don't want to wander too far from the topic of this thread, but the Kyoto School is fascinating. Centered around Kyoto University faculty, its work can be traced back to 1913 or so and its descendants are still prolific. This group of scholars have faced the "where were you during WW2?" questions as the relationship between Japanese militarism and Buddhist doctrine/individuals is examined by historians. That is a whole separate topic, and one that is complex (far more complex than Brian Victoria would have us believe). A few Kyoto scholars of interest are Hisamatsu Shinichi (Critical Sermons in the Zen Tradition - his work culminated in the "Fundamental Koan" -none of that will do - now what? -), a Rinzai practitioner/professor and Masao Abe, author of Zen and Western Thought, are prominent figures in addition to Nishida and Nishitani. The two latter scholars did a lot to not only assimilate western philosophy with eastern culture and ideas, but to explicate a set of ideas describing the uniqueness of Asian and Buddhist thought in the face of encroaching western culture and politics. In this sense, they were responsible for framing an anti-western and anti-colonial perspective during World War 2, while attempting to encourage dialogue in their own country in the face of increasing militarism and suppression of free enquiry and anti establishment political activity. From a philosophical and hermaneutic perspective, fascinating stuff.

Back to Jordan's initial post and question -

"how would a Zen practitioner refer to the God that Christians, fellow walkers in the Way, speak of? What is it that they/we are giving our wills up to? How, in relation to Zen verbiage, is a true Christian perceiving God?"

Kyoto scholar Ueda Shizateru uses the statement by Nishida "I see a flower - at that moment the flower is me and I am the flower..." to demonstrate both subject-object duality (I see a flower) and "reborn rationality" or the recognition of sunyata (I am the flower)... from that basic comparison of Western and Eastern philosophical perspectives comes a whole body of scholarship on existentialism, relationship to the divine and God ( I see or I am? - is the "divine" within or without the individual... is there something or someone to surrender our will to? etc.), and the role of reason in solving (or creating?) the world's afflictions..... there is also a recognition of the central role of mysticism in all the world's religious and faith traditions....

I am not going to attempt to answer these questions, but hope some of this material may point in an interesting direction.

I better stop.... my brain is overheating and I am probably much better off doing some zazen...!

Gassho
Yugen

[SyntaxJO]

Actually he was sitting with ascetics and teachers for a long time before he went off on his own.

That is correct. He had many teachers. Then at some point he said "enough with the teachers!", and sat his ass down. Yea?

Do you think communicating here is just a way to escape the retreat?

Uhhh... could be. I'm not really worried about it. I certainly is more fun to talk on here every now and again - I only allow an hour per day.

Most important is that I follow the rules I set before the retreat: zazen, and no real entertainment. The decision to come on here was very good for me, as it turns out, having some of my balls busted. I remember the first time I did a retreat. I had so many wonderful ideas about everything in life. I work in the creative fields, and there were just so many great gems. The next day, after the retreat, I forgot nearly all of them. Just philosophical brain candy I like to share with the world and incorporate into my work. So, now, I allow myself to record my ideas quickly into a lightning fast sound recorder. I also allow myself to read about Zen and related works, and to discourse on here. It certainly keeps, if all else, my mind on Zen. It has really opened everything up for me in terms of the nuts and bolts. Nothing but Zen, even if it's books, etc. I just make sure that I do my zazen without fail (fell asleep in the middle of a three block in the beginning).

[SyntaxJO]

[..]In talking with Thomas Merton[..]

Poor, poor Thomas Merton. Is it true that his own peoples had him rubbed out, and right before he was heading to Japan???

..and you lost me on your follow up post. Everything except the do more zazen part. Opp! Just read it again. Not bad. Yes, this is certainly interesting stuff. I guess I just wanted to know if there's a word for the Zen equivalent it. There are certainly words for many of the other things. Something like, "Oh! yea, that's what we call that the "bartell" experience (batero in Japanese[completely made up Zen term, everyone])." It's actually kinda fun how disjoined all the other faiths tend to be. You'd think there was someone or some faction that could clearly see the relationships between the faiths. Of course, you'd piss off a billion people by being so blasphemous, but that happens anyway! The world and mind become very fun to explore and unfold.

Funny how the longer I inquire about it the original question, I'm reminded of a quote:

It doesn't matter.

- Homer J. Simpson

[SyntaxJO]

Hi,

Hey.

I want to apologize to Jordan for two things due to misreading his postings here, and at ZFI, late last night with tired eyes.

Very unexpected but not unbelievable. I was so confused! I big, heart felt thank you. Now, I don't feel crazy or like I'm having a flashback (heh).

However, I think that the rest of the post I wrote is pretty good advice, and I will stick with it.

This I can work with.

And I can tell you for a fact that Stanley does exist. I met him 2 or three times in a number of questionable occasions. He's nice enough, I just wouldn't get an apartment with the guy, is all.

[ZenHarmony]

...As I come close to being free of 'myself' from time to time I feel as though my body and mind are in accord with whatever is in front of me. Every action is followed through with no thought of intent. Everything is simply beng done, and there is giddiness, joy, and absolutely no need to be certain of anything.

...What is it that they/we are giving our wills up to? How, in relation to Zen verbiage, is a true Christian perceiving God?

Personally, (and I'm really new to Zen, so what do I know?) I don't see that I am giving my will up to anyone or anything. I am simply opening my mind to the Truth, clearing the mud from my eyes so that I may See and filling my heart with Compassion. Nobody can give that to me, nor am I going to get that as a reward for giving up my Self (aka as my Ego). It is my birthright, it is what I was born with, and I'm simply making my way back Home.

...These giddy experiences come to me from prolonged meditation, and they do not contrast a dark morose I have otherwise, as I don't. They are the times when it all makes sense to me and all is clear, and that always comes from sitting on my zafu...

I can't wait to experience that giddiness! Thank you for your expression of it, Jordan!



Lisa

PS - If some think they have a right to judge me, to discount my words because of how they perceive what I've said, with my clumsiness in expressing myself, then I may as well be back worshipping with the rest of the hypocrites thrashing around and pretending to speak in tongues for as much good as it's going to do me!