Violence and self-defense

[Tb]

Hi.

In my humble opinion it is an issue of not misusing force and violence ,and this doesn't have to be in physical form, but can take other forms as well.
And if you look onto what, according to Legend, The buddha did say i believe you will find that there are instances where he says the opposite to what Zenharmony brought up.
But for me, it's not as simple as black and white situations, and if a man pulled knife on me i would show him, if able to, my "black-belt-in-100-yard-dash"-skills, if not i would show him some other skills...
It all depends on the circumstances, but we should do the best we can to avoid harm, even though it sometimes means we need to deal it.

At the end of the day, what matters is what you do, not what you think you might.

Mtfbwy
Fugen

Hello Chet,

I would like to believe that I can understand you. But whether we like it or not (and ultimately I am with you), if we do not carefully look at what certain teachings were, we are running the risk of proclaiming anything that fits our own preconceptions as the Dharma.

If these questions do not arise in you, it's fine Chet, just practise. If someone is trying to find out about possible teachings that relate to ethical dilemmas etc., it's not always good enough to say just sit. A lot of war-butchers were really good at sitting.

Most teachings were given for a reason. The raft is to be abandoned after one has completely crossed the river. Up until that point it's pretty important for most practitioners to look at what the old raft builders had to say, even if one discovers that one has to build one's own raft in a slightly different way, due to different circumstances

Maybe you should look at where the wish to smack someone comes from.

Nobody here is talking about set-in-stone doctrines.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

Almost all of that was said in jest, Hans. I'm feeling the levity in Leviticus. It's not that I don't think we should measure ourselves against our forebears, it's that pure mimicry won't win the day. Smiling at the neighbor I hate won't do much but make me smile creepily. Being able to see myself as him might turn my heart.

In the end, I don't think we disagree as much as we seem to.

Gassho.

Chet

Hi,

I always speak honestly about this ...

It is my conviction (almost happened once, in fact... and having lived in drug and gun Miami much of my early life, it is not a mere hypothetical) that if I found an intruder in our house anywhere near my children or wife, I would hit him hard with a baseball bat, use a knife or any other weapon handy (I do not believe in guns in the house) ... hit him until he stopped moving (when it comes to PCP and other drugs, that may take some effort) ... then chant for him after. I have no doubt.

Although he may be a victim of greed, anger and ignorance ... I would not hesitate to stop an intruder including the use of deadly force if necessary.

Having sat with this question each year as we reflect on the Precept on Preserving Life, I am comfortable with such an action under those circumstances, and I am willing the carry any Karma which may result.

I don't think it good to play the saint "beyond" all such things, cause this world is ugly sometimes.

Gassho, J

Thank you for this Jundo ... as yes, I agree, the world is ugly sometimes. I was taught through my Aikido sensei that violence is uncontrolled intention. If you are attacked ... be pure in your attention to protect yourself and loved ones, but also to protect your attacker. Having pure intention for your attacker will help in ensure you don't use excessive force.

... and yes, chant afterwards.

[Jundo]

Hi Hans,

Yes, we must always seek to avoid violence (although not always possible) and to avoid to fall into extremes.

Gassho, Jundo

[Hans]

Hello Jundo,

I am pretty sure I'd do the same Jundo, the thing is that we might have to accept that sometimes circumstances lead us into a corner that won't allow us to do anything other than the not-so-skillful-and-nice solution.

If I met a starving tigress I believe I wouldn't sacrifice my body just to feed her cubs.... My point is that we can take the "let's be realistic" approach also too far. One moment it's turn the other cheek, only a few generations later it's warrior monks (doesn't matter whether at Hiei-zan or in a Knights Templar castle).

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Jundo]

Hi,

I always speak honestly about this ...

It is my conviction (almost happened once, in fact... and having lived in drug and gun Miami much of my early life, it is not a mere hypothetical) that if I found an intruder in our house anywhere near my children or wife, I would hit him hard with a baseball bat, use a knife or any other weapon handy (I do not believe in guns in the house) ... hit him until he stopped moving (when it comes to PCP and other drugs, that may take some effort) ... then chant for him after. I have no doubt.

Although he may be a victim of greed, anger and ignorance ... I would not hesitate to stop an intruder including the use of deadly force if necessary.

Having sat with this question each year as we reflect on the Precept on Preserving Life, I am comfortable with such an action under those circumstances, and I am willing the carry any Karma which may result.

I don't think it good to play the saint "beyond" all such things, cause this world is ugly sometimes.

Gassho, J

[Hans]

Hello Chet,

I would like to believe that I can understand you. But whether we like it or not (and ultimately I am with you), if we do not carefully look at what certain teachings were, we are running the risk of proclaiming anything that fits our own preconceptions as the Dharma.

If these questions do not arise in you, it's fine Chet, just practise. If someone is trying to find out about possible teachings that relate to ethical dilemmas etc., it's not always good enough to say just sit. A lot of war-butchers were really good at sitting.

Most teachings were given for a reason. The raft is to be abandoned after one has completely crossed the river. Up until that point it's pretty important for most practitioners to look at what the old raft builders had to say, even if one discovers that one has to build one's own raft in a slightly different way, due to different circumstances

Maybe you should look at where the wish to smack someone comes from.

Nobody here is talking about set-in-stone doctrines.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

Threads like this really make me wanna smack someone. Wait...as a Buddhist, am I allowed to laugh at The Three Stooges? /funny(?) stuff

In all seriousness, it doesn't matter what the Buddha said if we can't find our way to it. What are the root causes of violence? Kill those (and also the Buddha).

Chet

[Ekai]

I believe violence is very unskillful however if a woman is faced with using self-defense as a last resort to prevent herself from being brutally raped, I don't see that as unskillful but more of an obligation. The same thing applies to protecting their child as long as the defense stops once the attack is controlled. It becomes violent when the person defending themselves proceeds to attack the assailant after the situation is under control which is called turnabout.

Gassho,
Ekai

[Khalil Bodhi]

Hello,

may I make some general observations, and yeah, this is a bit of a rant, and intentionally so, so please don't continue reading if you are easily offended.

A lot of us westerners in particular have certain ideas we like to entertain, and will then go out to find authoritative statements to support that view. Sometimes it might be more honest to say " Well, my relgious tradition teaches XYZ in general , but to be perfectly honest I don't think I can live up to that standard."

One should not try to bend the Buddhadharma into a shape that one personally finds pleasing IMHO, but obviously there is not ONE sacred text that has the power to annull all other lore in our tradition.

My very subjective bottom line is that we are raised with fighting and war being glorified everywhere, mainstream media outlets that don't show us the knitty-gritty pictures of civilians being blown to pieces and the suffering of those who are "only" the victims of physical assault, rape etc. in a more domestic situation.

I find most of Japan's Samurai culture to be a highly idealized pipe-dream that might seem like a wonderful source of inspiration to those who nowadays dream themselves into the Samurai's position....but don't think how it was being a peasant at that time. I love Musashi as much as the next guy, but seriously, it took this guy decades to discover that killing dozens of people in times of peace was not really such a splendid idea. Yeah, great. What a wonderful example, and his calligraphy was great too.

The world doesn't need more people willing to hurt others for whichever reasons, it needs people with a healthy relationship with their own aggression and the guts to stand their ground and endure suffering before jumping on the "pre-emptive strike" wagon.

If we or our family members get physically attacked, we will all do what we will do...some of us will be paralysed with fear, others will defend themeselves and their loved ones...others might think one second too long about the situation and lose it all.

Though seemingly necessary at times and the only way out, violence will always be unskillful and should never be viewed as a perfectly okay reaction.


Gassho,


Hans Chudo Mongen

Thank you Hans!

Gassho
__/\__
Mike

[Hans]

Hello,

may I make some general observations, and yeah, this is a bit of a rant, and intentionally so, so please don't continue reading if you are easily offended.

A lot of us westerners in particular have certain ideas we like to entertain, and will then go out to find authoritative statements to support that view. Sometimes it might be more honest to say " Well, my relgious tradition teaches XYZ in general , but to be perfectly honest I don't think I can live up to that standard."

One should not try to bend the Buddhadharma into a shape that one personally finds pleasing IMHO, but obviously there is not ONE sacred text that has the power to annull all other lore in our tradition.

My very subjective bottom line is that we are raised with fighting and war being glorified everywhere, mainstream media outlets that don't show us the knitty-gritty pictures of civilians being blown to pieces and the suffering of those who are "only" the victims of physical assault, rape etc. in a more domestic situation.

I find most of Japan's Samurai culture to be a highly idealized pipe-dream that might seem like a wonderful source of inspiration to those who nowadays dream themselves into the Samurai's position....but don't think how it was being a peasant at that time. I love Musashi as much as the next guy, but seriously, it took this guy decades to discover that killing dozens of people in times of peace was not really such a splendid idea. Yeah, great. What a wonderful example, and his calligraphy was great too.

The world doesn't need more people willing to hurt others for whichever reasons, it needs people with a healthy relationship with their own aggression and the guts to stand their ground and endure suffering before jumping on the "pre-emptive strike" wagon.

If we or our family members get physically attacked, we will all do what we will do...some of us will be paralysed with fear, others will defend themeselves and their loved ones...others might think one second too long about the situation and lose it all.

Though seemingly necessary at times and the only way out, violence will always be unskillful and should never be viewed as a perfectly okay reaction.


Gassho,


Hans Chudo Mongen

[threethirty]

This thread has seemed to me kinda like suffering about the potential of future suffering. I get asked alot "what would you do if I did this?" to which I respond "please don't do that" In the present moment the right thing happens and there will karma no matter what you choose. Compassion is the most important thing to remember in any dealings with all beings. I have a similar question to this come up often at work (I work for two peace churches), they don't understand how Kung-Fu is peaceful...

Just my two cents,

[Jundo]

Hello Mike, the Dhammapada is the Buddha's teaching? Do you know a little about it?
Thank you for your good job
Gassho

Yang Hsin

Hi,

The Dhammapada is an anthology of verses attributed to the Buddha, some of them pithy Dharma Teachings and wise sayings gathered from South Asian Suttas and other sources, and some just folk sayings and old Indian mother's advice that came to be attributed to the Buddha somehow. In that way, it is a bit like the sayings of the American Benjamin Franklin such as "Early to bed, early to rise, makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise", but with a Buddhist flavor. Whatever the source of the Dhammapada, it has become, especially in South Asian Buddhist traditions (most of the quotes have a Theravadan Buddhist flavor), a much beloved and cherished collection of quotes and sage wisdom ... such as ...

"The one who has conquered himself is a far greater hero than he who has defeated a thousand times a thousand men."

"All that we are is the result of what we have thought: it is founded on our thoughts, it is made up of our thoughts. If a man speaks or acts with an evil thought, pain follows him, as the wheel follows the foot of the ox that draws the carriage."

“When a man dwells on the objects of sense, he creates an attraction for them; attraction develops into desire, and desire breeds anger.”

“Just as a flower which seems beautiful and has color but has no perfume, so are the fruitless words of the man who speaks them but does them not”

Recommended to all.

Gassho, J

Hello Mike, the Dhammapada is the Buddha's teaching? Do you know a little about it?
Thank you for your good job
Gassho

Yang Hsin

[Khalil Bodhi]

In the book of my martial art, a samurai technic school, it is written (just to share something):Just win a victory is not a victory. The real victory is to have achieved the goal of not using weapons, not fight, this is wa (harmony), it is heiho (Art of Peace). In the sutra of the essence of evil passions (zuibonnokyo) it says "make hostility to hostility, it is forever to lose all hope of peace. Oppose him simply serenity, it will disappear of itself .. it is a law that comes from ancient times "

Gassho

Yang Hsin

Hello Yang Hsin,

This sounds as if it came directly from the Dhammapada, verse 5:

5. Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is a law eternal.

Source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit...p.01.budd.html

Gassho,
__/\__
Mike