Japanese Monk?

[Seiryu]

I was listening to an interview with Robert Thurman and during the interview he was talking about the importance of monastic traditions and stuff like that. I know there was a post about "knocking down monastery walls" so I'm not here to re-start that thread. What I am interested in is what Thurman said about Japanese monks not being real monks because they do not have to be celibate and can have a wife and children. Since it is not a traditional Bhikshu ordination they should not call themselves monk because, in his words, "monk means celibate, they should called themselves priest or ministers, not monks."

In my limited understanding, this seems like a very narrow view about monk-hood to hold.
And sounds a lot like, "my tradition has real monks, not yours" type of attitude.

I remember what the current Kalu Rinpoche said about what makes a monk. If one sincerely wishes to help all beings, and is truly living their life according to the Dharma or precepts, then they are already a monk.

I have heard similar things stated about the Japanese monk tradition before from different traditions, and I'm just curious to know what you guys think about this.

[Kaishin]

Re: Japanese Monk?

My feeling is, who cares what label you have? Monk this, monk that. Are you living the Bodhisattva way? Then you are a monk. Or you are not a monk.

Seems like "much ado about nothing!"

:?

[Seiryu]

Re: Japanese Monk?

My feeling is, who cares what label you have? Monk this, monk that. Are you living the Bodhisattva way? Then you are a monk. Or you are not a monk.

Seems like "much ado about nothing!"

:?

I completely agree indeed.

[Kyotai]

Re: Japanese Monk?

In my humble opinion...

In today’s day in age, a "monk" who is married, has children, lives among the people (takes there kids to soccer practice) will be much more likely to have an impact (through helping others reduce suffering) then if they were inside a walled in monastery..(not that there is anything wrong with that)

There was a Buddhist monastery near my college. Although many seemed intrigued/interested in this way of life, it can be incredibly intimidating for the average Joe to just walk up, bang on the door and ask to learn more.

Someone already immersed in the community I feel would be more approachable. Perhaps I am way off. Nevertheless....

Shawn

[Seiryu]

Re: Japanese Monk?

I am reminded of a quote I like

There is a Chinese saying “A low practitioner does retreat in the forest, a high practitioner does retreat in the cities”. A practitioner who moves away from the cities to do practice in the quiet and remote forest is only a low level practitioner; a high practitioner can do his practice amidst all the physical pollution and human complications of a city, he excels in that kind of environment, like a peacock who thrives on eating poisonous plants, He, is the real master.

[SoR]

Re: Japanese Monk?

I've seen that interview. I think he was speaking to how the system in Japan had the tendency to turn temples into family businesses that were passed down instead of places for enlightenment and liberation from suffering. He also says he doesn't have a problem with "the Japanese Zen people." He just doesn't think they are Bhikkhus and should use a different label.

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Japanese Monk?

If you consider yourself a monk, you are a monk.

[Ryumon]

Re: Japanese Monk?

If you consider yourself a monk, you are a monk.

Really? So if I consider myself a super-hero with awesome powers, does that make me one?

I tend to disagree. In fact, the use of the word "monk" does bother me, because I don't think it fits with the way such people act and interact with the world. Monk, in English, has very strong connotations of being apart from others. This is historically because of the way Catholic monks lived, but we can't shake those connotations. (I'm a firm believer in the power of semantics, notably the power of unconscious connotations of words.)

The dictionary on my Mac defines it as:

a member of a religious community of men typically living under vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience.

(Of course, the same entry also has this, which will please Jundo:

Monk, Thelonious |m?NGk|
(1917–82), US jazz pianist and composer; a founder of the bebop style in the early 1940s; full name Thelonious Sphere Monk. Notable compositions: “Round Midnight,”“Straight, No Chaser,” and “Well, You Needn't.”

No, I agree that there should be a different word. I think "cleric" would be the most apt, and the thesaurus on my Mac gives a number of other possibilities for words that are similar to "priest":

cleric, churchman, churchwoman, man/woman of the cloth, man/woman of God, ecclesiastic; priest, minister, pastor, preacher, chaplain, father, bishop, rector, parson, vicar, curate, deacon, deaconess; monk, nun, religious, friar, sister, brother; informal reverend, padre, sky pilot, Bible thumper; dated divine.

Okay, we can perhaps leave out "Bible thumper," but I really like "sky pilot;" I never heard that before. :-)

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Japanese Monk?

Really? So if I consider myself a super-hero with awesome powers, does that make me one?

Yes! Exactly!

If you just say you are a Soto Zen monk, not everybody will agree. Some may ask you to show some sort of certificate that you are an official monk.
But if you feel deeply that you are a monk, if you live the way you think a monk should be living, robe, bowl, certificate, temple, none of that matters to me, you are a monk.
And you do have awesome powers.

Gassho,
Pontus

[Ryumon]

Re: Japanese Monk?

I don't think it requires a certificate, but I do think it implies a certain way of living. (And also a certain dharma transmission, which may not have a certificate, but which, in most traditions, is considered to be essential.)

[andyZ]

Re: Japanese Monk?

Really? So if I consider myself a super-hero with awesome powers, does that make me one?

Yes! Exactly!

If you just say you are a Soto Zen monk, not everybody will agree. Some may ask you to show some sort of certificate that you are an official monk.
But if you feel deeply that you are a monk, if you live the way you think a monk should be living, robe, bowl, certificate, temple, none of that matters to me, you are a monk.
And you do have awesome powers.

Gassho,
Pontus

Pontus,
I have to disagree with you. Declaring yourself a monk or a roshi or a guru is very dangerous. The history is full of examples of such cults, many of these were extremely destructive. Aum Shinrikyo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aum_Shinrikyo, for example. Another aspect of it is that without an external confirmation by some kind of authority (a teacher) it may be just a game that our ego is playing.

[RichardH]

Re: Japanese Monk?

This is a word thing, and words mean different things to different people. To one person "Monk" means being celibate, to another that is not a necessary part of the definition. "Bhikkhu" sounds celibate to me, "monk" could be celibate, but could also be married while keeping practice the core of life, and living simply. "Priest" does not imply celibacy.

The issue here is that a practitioner in one stream of Buddhism seems to be casting doubt and discredit on ordination in another. That is not cool.

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Japanese Monk?

Pontus,
I have to disagree with you.

That's OK, I'm not saying my view is right! Some people are calling themselves Zen Masters... That's just ridiculous! :roll: :lol:

Gassho,
Pontus

[Jundo]

Re: Japanese Monk?

Hi,

I feel that Bob Thurman, the gifted Tibetan translator and scholar ... and father to actress Uma Thurman ... is very right ... and very wrong.

Japanese male Zen clergy may marry ... but first they typically, in their younger years, spend several years of celibate practice in an "all boys" traditional monastery (though, granted, perhaps some have girlfriends they see during the breaks, but it is discouraged). I think that, when practicing for years in a traditional monastic environment, living a monkish lifestyle, they properly can be described as "monks". So, Prof. Thurman is wrong. Later, when (as the majority do) they marry and are functioning more to service a temple parish, "priest" may be more appropriate, as Uma's dad says.

Anyway ... a name is a name is a name.

In truth, the terms "priest" or "monk" are words that are pretty ill fitting translations for the original Japanese/Chinese (or Pali/Sanskrit) ... imposed when Judeo-Christian vocabulary was used in the 19th century to roughly translate concepts that are different in important ways. I usually post this ...

The words "monk" and "priest" do not really work as good translations of the Japanese terms, and were picked, obviously, from a Judeo-Christian vocabulary. "Priest" carries the feeling of working some power to intervene with God/the spirits, and most Zen "monks" only reside in monasteries for periods as part of their training ... so both words are not good fits (except when the person is actually residing in a monastery and might be described then as a "monk".). The best translations might be "Companion" "Guide" "Teacher" or (my favorite) "Rabbi (which also means "teacher")".

A very nice old term for a teacher used in China is "shanzhishi" = a good spiritual friend (Sanskrit kalyanamitra.)

I prefer "Zen clergy or teacher or minister ". One of the many Japanese terms usually (and awkwardly) translated as "monk/priest" in English is actually closer to "Buddhist companion" , which I care for very much ...

?? (the first kanji derives from the "san" of Sanskrit sangha = community, and the second means companion)

So "Buddhist companion" or "Sangha Friend and Companion" may be the most accurate.

Since I have a wife and two kids ... and do not not feel that I intervene with the gods and spirits, I think that "monk" and "priest" are both pretty poor labels to describe me. I am content to be a companion, teacher or friend.

Of course, many "Zen priests" in Japan and China do reside in temples in which they are largely concerned with performing funeral and other ceremonies for parishioners to appease the spirits, bring good fortune or the like. In such case, "priest" is not at all inaccurate to describe such folks.

A rose by any other name ...

Traditionally, the Buddhist Sangha was divided into Bikkhu (monks), Bikkhuni (nuns), Upasaka (laymen), Upasika (laywomen). The monks and nuns were completely celibate (Soto Zen nuns in Japan, by the way, overwhelmingly tend to maintain celibacy and not marry ... although that is primarily their personal choice at this point). For our ordinations here, I wrote this on "Home leaving" ...

Traditionally, in India, China, Japan and the other Buddhist countries of Asia, one was expected to leave one’s home and family behind in order to begin the necessary training and practice of an “apprentice”. Thus, the ancient ceremony of ordination in Buddhism became known as Shukke Tokudo, “Leaving Home to Take the Way”. Now, in modern Japan and in the West, one of the great changes in the nature of Buddhist clergy has been that most of us function more as “ministers” than “monks”, with family and children, often with outside jobs as “Right Livelihood” supporting us, while ministering to a community of parishioners. This, in keeping with changes in cultures and society, has done much to bring Buddhism out from behind monastery walls. While, now, we may be living in a monastic setting for periods of weeks or months (and thus can be called “monks” during such times), we then return to the world beyond monastery walls, where these teachings have such relevance for helping people in this ordinary life. We are not bound by monastery walls, dropping all barriers separating "inside" from "out". Thus, the term “leaving home” has come to have a wider meaning, of “leaving behind” greed, anger, ignorance, the harmful emotions and attachments that fuel so much of this world, in order to find the “True Home” we all share. In such way, we find that Home that can never be left, take to the Way that cannot be taken.

Now, this leads to a couple of controversial topics, touched on in Bob Thurman's interview. One is the place of monasticism in the future of Western Buddhism. That is a topic for another day.

A second issue is this:

Japanese Buddhist priests of any Japanese lineage (Shingon, Tendai, Jodo, Nichiren, Rinzai or Soto Zen Buddhist) takes ordination upon the Sixteen Bodhisattva Precepts only, while most traditions "on the continent" still take the traditional 227 Vinaya Precepts (although the Bodhisattva Precepts are asserted by the Japanese to hold the "essence" of the full Vinaya). Most Japanese male clergy marry, almost no clergy on the continent do (although, interestingly, many "monks" in Bob Thurman's Tibet do marry or have sexual consorts ... and many in Seung Sahn's Kwan Um school where the interviewer is from marry, and Seung Sahn himself had very many sexual affairs while still calling himself a "monk", although off topic). Anyway ...

There is a tendency of some of the "227" Priests to try to force the Japanese Priests into "second class" or lay status ... for example, not allowing them to join into rituals, or requiring them to sit in the back of the room at shared events. Of course, the Japanese priests are generally not so much in agreement. Japanese Buddhist clergy mostly do not consider themselves "lay". When attending events on "the continent" in Asia, most (although very politely, of course!) will not concede to sit and stand with but the other clergy.

In the case of our Sangha, the distinction of male-female-lay-ordained is simply dropped into emptiness. Some are Sentient Beings who function in the role of Clergy much as some Sentient Beings function in the role of bus driver, doctor or mechanic, spouse or parent when trained or functioning in those roles in life. Much as with the distinction between "male" and "female" Zen teachers and practitioners in the West, it is simply forgotten.

Much as occurred during the Reformation in Europe, changes are happening. Yes, the Buddha spoke of four categories for the Sangha, and it is still upheld in much of Continental Asia. But the Buddha was simply a man of his times ... and Buddhism the product of conservative, traditional cultures ... and times change. Perhaps the Buddha was just wrong to see the distinction in the first place, as he was wrong about many minor things (though, fortunately for us, not the major things).

Gassho, J

[Jundo]

Re: Japanese Monk?

My feeling is, who cares what label you have? Monk this, monk that. Are you living the Bodhisattva way? Then you are a monk. Or you are not a monk.

Seems like "much ado about nothing!"

:?

Oh and by the way ... I feel this says it best.

Gassho, J