Few questions about monastic life.

[Kaishin]

RE: Few questions about monastic life.

Yes, that much is clear. But the extreme deference (both physical and verbal) to a teacher in a formal environment like that is a bit different.

Ultimately there is no difference, but actually there is...

I'm not saying their way is "wrong," simply that you're not going to see me jumping across the room to have someone admonish/praise me!

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[Seiryu]

Re: RE: Few questions about monastic life.

Yes, that much is clear. But the extreme deference (both physical and verbal) to a teacher in a formal environment like that is a bit different.

Ultimately there is no difference, but actually there is...

I'm not saying their way is "wrong," simply that you're not going to see me jumping across the room to have someone admonish/praise me!

Sent from my SGH-i917 using Board Express

I wouldn't jump either...I once saw a monk fall over trying to reach the Dokusan line first....

[andyZ]

Re: RE: Few questions about monastic life.

Thank you Shawn for sharing the story.

I'm not saying their way is "wrong," simply that you're not going to see me jumping across the room to have someone admonish/praise me!

I sincerely doubt that praising is the purpose here. Though I must admit it does sound "counter zen" to me too. I assume it goes back to the time when people were really eager to learn the dharma and be ready to even give their arm for it.

[Dokan]

Re: RE: Few questions about monastic life.

I must say... Sounds very cultish

One man's cult is another man's practice.

Almost everyone I met asked about my practice and were amazed at Treeleaf. Some may stop by some day. Other's were in disbelief that it could be authentic...however I would argue they really mean traditional.

Gassho,

s

[Nindo]

Re: RE: Few questions about monastic life.

Yes, that much is clear. But the extreme deference (both physical and verbal) to a teacher in a formal environment like that is a bit different.

Ultimately there is no difference, but actually there is...

I'm not saying their way is "wrong," simply that you're not going to see me jumping across the room to have someone admonish/praise me!

Sent from my SGH-i917 using Board Express

It pays to look very closely at the whole bowing matter. Who is bowing? Who do you bow to? What does it mean to you? There is respect for the teacher, yes, but the teacher is probably the guy who does the most bows during the day, considering the liturgy. Personality drops away, pure form is left. I think the form around dokusan makes it clear that this is not just going to be a chat, this is a moment within the long chain of dharma encounters throughout the ages.

The answer you get is always your own. It may just take some time to realize this.

_/_

[Kaishin]

Re: Few questions about monastic life.

I probably shouldn't have said anything... hope I didn't offend anyone. The picture Shawn painted of dokusan just seemed so absurd I had a hard time believing anyone would actually do that. But as Seiryu pointed out, sitting on a cushion staring at a wall is pretty absurd too.

Everything is pretty dumb.

_/_

[Dokan]

Re: Few questions about monastic life.

I probably shouldn't have said anything... hope I didn't offend anyone. The picture Shawn painted of dokusan just seemed so absurd I had a hard time believing anyone would actually do that. But as Seiryu pointed out, sitting on a cushion staring at a wall is pretty absurd too.

Everything is pretty dumb.

Well if you did offend someone then maybe they need to check their attachment to their beliefs. I'm with you...it's all pretty absurd...and wonderful somehow. :twisted:

Gassho,

s

[andyZ]

Re: Few questions about monastic life.

I probably shouldn't have said anything... hope I didn't offend anyone. The picture Shawn painted of dokusan just seemed so absurd I had a hard time believing anyone would actually do that. But as Seiryu pointed out, sitting on a cushion staring at a wall is pretty absurd too.

Everything is pretty dumb.

_/_

I think you're on to something here though. It's a good practice to be accepting of others.

How's about this for being a part of Buddhist tradition too:

A kapala (Sanskrit for "skull") or skullcup is a cup made from a human skull used as a ritual implement (bowl) in both Hindu Tantra and Buddhist Tantra (Vajrayana). Especially in Tibet, they were often carved or elaborately mounted with precious metals and jewels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapala

[Jundo]

Re: Few questions about monastic life.

But really, i do believe it is good to go see what, and how, other people are doing, gives you a perspective of things.
And if you don't go, you might miss a gem. And just to be clear that doesn't imply that there aren't any other gems out there...

Yes, just to be clear ... even though every chef may have a different way of making the soup, that does not mean that many soups can't be all simultaneously delicious! The practice there may be lovely and powerful medicine right for some. Same but rather different, different but ultimately the same. I just think it good for the "informed meditator/student chef" to know where various traditions or teachers may be coming from before settling on the style of cooking right for them!

And I certainly don't think there is anything about Zen Mountain Center that is "cultish"! Also, Daido's talks always have rung the bell, and resonated with my heart, when I have listened to them. Very recommended if you can find some online (not just to read, because his gravel voice is part).

I do think that that Lineage tends not to present Shikantaza well, as it is always somewhat through the lens of their emphasis on attaining Kensho, and their seeing Koan Zazen as their main practice. However, that may have softened over the years.

Hi All,
Now that we've heard about and seen a video of Rinzai's Dokusan I have a couple of questions.

1) What is the proper protocol and etiquette for a Sotoshu Dokusan?

2) What is the proper protocol and etiquette for a Treeleaf Dokusan?

The "formal" Sotoshu Dokusan procedure and etiquette in a monastery is about what Shawn described. Many in the West, especially the good 'ol 'take it easy'USA, have "gone casual"... and it is a "Hi, how's it going?" thing. I am of such school. I write a bit more about that here, with a funny video too ...

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2826

I would not call such intricate procedures and traditions as "absurd", but more of a formal dance, a ceremony, a ritual.

However, whether formal or informal, in a Soto dokusan, the emphasis is usually not on "presenting a Koan" in the Rinzai way. Rather, it may be a general question about practice ... a formal or informal "how's practice going?".

Gassho, J

[Kaishin]

Re: Few questions about monastic life.

I did want to ask, Shawn, what was it that led you to ZMM in particular?

[andyZ]

Re: Few questions about monastic life.

And I certainly don't think there is anything about Zen Mountain Center that is "cultish"! Also, Daido's talks always have rung the bell, and resonated with my heart, when I have listened to them. Very recommended if you can find some online (not just to read, because his gravel voice is part).

ZMM has a website with their Dharma talks:
http://wzen.org/category/podcast/
and online radio:
http://wzen.org/broadcast-schedule/

[Jundo]

Re: Few questions about monastic life.

One of my favorite presentations of "Shikantaza" from that Lineage is by Yasutani Roshi. In reading the following, it makes sense if one realizes that Yasutani was coming from the hard, samurai, militaristic, macho, "no pain no gain, Kensho or die trying" Rinzai tradition ... even though he was a Soto priest teaching Soto and Shikantaza. Most of the description is not much different from how Taigu and I might describe Shikantaza around here, but I boldfaced some parts where Yasutani Roshi's Rinzai flavor and emphasis on "explosive Kensho" really stands out.

Now, most of Yasutani Roshi's Western descendants in America and other places have certainly eased up on that, and present Shikantaza in a more "goalless, effortless" way much as one might encounter around Treeleaf. However, I feel that they still sometimes present Shikantaza as secondary to the race for Kensho.

Shikantaza

Hakuun Yasutani

(1885-1973)


The Fukanzazengi by Dogen Zenji is good instruction, but is very difficult to understand. It is especially hard to comprehend how to work with the mind, and how the practice relates to enlightenment. I will briefly explain how to practice shikantaza.

Generally speaking, zazen can be described in three phases: first, adjusting the body, second, the breathing, and third, the mind. The first and second are the same both in koan Zen and shikantaza. However, the third, adjusting the mind, is done very differently in the two practices.

To do shikantaza, one must have a firm faith in the fact that all beings are fundamentally Buddhas. Dogen Zenji says in the ninth chapter of Precautions on learning the Way:
You should practice along with the Way. Those who believe in the Buddha way must believe in the fact that their own self is in the midst of the Way from the beginning, so that there is not confusion, no delusion, no distorted viewpoint, no increase or decrease, and no errors. To have such faith and to understand such a way and practice in accordance with it is the very fundamental aspect of learning of the Way. You try to cut off the root of consciousness by sitting. Eight, even nine out of ten will be able to see the Way- have kensho- suddenly.

This is the key to practicing shikantaza. But this does not at all mean that one must believe that one's small-minded, self-centered life is Buddha's life-on the contrary! Casting all sorts of self-centeredness away and making yourself as a clean sheet of paper; sit, just firmly sit. Sit unconditionally, knowing that sitting itself is the actualization of buddha-hood- this is the foundation of shikantaza. If one's faith in that fact is shaky, one's shikantaza is also shaky.

In doing shikantaza you must maintain mental alertness, which is of particular importance to beginners-and even those who have been practicing ten years could still be called beginners! Often due to weak concentration, one becomes self-conscious or falls into a sort of trance or ecstatic state of mind. Such practice might be useful to relax yourself, but it will never lead to enlightenment and is not the practice of the Buddha Way.

When you thoroughly practice shikantaza you will sweat-even in the winter. Such intensely heightened alertness of mind cannot be maintained for long periods of time. You might think that you can maintain it for longer, but this state will naturally loosen. So sit half an hour to an hour, then stand up and do a period of kinhin, walking meditation.

During kinhin, relax the mind a little. Refresh yourself. Then sit down and continue shikantaza.

To do shikantaza does not mean to become without thoughts, yet, doing shikantaza, do not let your mind wander. Do not even contemplate enlightenment or becoming Buddha. As soon as such thoughts arise, you have stopped doing shikantaza. Dogen says very clearly, "Do not attempt to become Buddha."

Sit with such intensely heightened concentration, patience, and alertness that if someone were to touch you while you are sitting, there would be an electrical spark! Sitting thus, you return naturally to the original Buddha, the very nature of your being.

Then, almost anything can plunge you into the sudden realization that all beings are originally buddhas and all existence is perfect from the beginning. Experiencing this is called enlightenment. Personally experiencing this is as vivid as an explosion; regardless of how well you know the theory of explosions, only an actual explosion will do anything. In the same manner, no matter how much you know about enlightenment, until you actually experience it, you will not be intimately aware of yourself as Buddha.

In short, shikantaza is the actual practice of buddhahood itself from the very beginning-and, in diligently practicing shikantaza, when the time comes, one will realize that very fact.

However, to practice in this manner can require a long time to attain enlightenment, and such practice should never be discontinued until one fully realizes enlightenment. Even after attaining great enlightenment and even if one becomes a roshi, one must continue to do shikantaza forever, simply because shikantaza is the actualization of enlightenment itself.

Hakuun Yasutani (1885-1973)

[Hoyu]

Re: Few questions about monastic life.

These words of Hakuun Yasutani spoke to me the most:

Even after attaining great enlightenment and even if one becomes a roshi, one must continue to do shikantaza forever, simply because shikantaza is the actualization of enlightenment itself.

Very beautiful!

Thank you Jundo Sensei for your response to my question on Treeleaf Dokusan protocol.

Gassho,
John

[Dokan]

Re: Re: Few questions about monastic life.

I did want to ask, Shawn, what was it that led you to ZMM in particular?

Well. For the years before Treeleaf I had sustained my practice on books and podcasts...ZMM via Dharma Communications has helped my practice in this way for years.

Thus when looking for a place for intensive practice, it was either ZMM or SFZC...or maybe both!

Gassho

Shawn

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[Jundo]

Re: Few questions about monastic life.

Just to repeat what should be repeated ... I posted this elsewhere today ...

Just to be clear, Taigu and I strongly encourage folks ... if you can find the time ... to go for retreats of a few days and full Sesshin (even a full week or two if you can) at places, and "traditional" (i.e., very Japanese style) retreats and Sesshin are good experiences. ZMM/MRO is a good place to experience that [as is SFZC, several other places in North America and Europe].

Now, someone might ask too, "if each moment is all time and space, what is the purpose of an intensive Sesshin?" Well, I often say that, sometimes, we need to practice a bit long and hard, morning to night ... sitting and wrestling with 'me, my self and I' ... all to achieve nothing to attain! Going to Retreats, Sesshin and such is a powerful facet of this Practice and not to be missed.

Of course, we have our Annual "All Online" two-day Retreat too (currently scheduled for the weekend of December 3rd & 4th, via live netcast) at Treeleaf Sangha ... traditional (yet "fully online") ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/sit-a-long/with ... 10---.html

... but this is a case where it is actually good to go to a retreat center and practice with folks for a time (if at all possible ... which it ain't for everybody).

Gassho, J