The story of the Buddha compared to that of Christ.

[thirst_for_knowledge]

Just kind of throwing this subject out there, as a practicing Buddhist and with no disrespect but, although it is very easy to find not only solace and wisdom of the teachings of the Buddha but, a great peace and true happiness in the application of Buddhist thought, it dosen't take much investigation to see the many ways in which the story of the Buddha jibes with that of Christ, Dionysus, mythra, and even in some ways to Quetzalcoatl.
For example...

Both Buddha and Jesus were baptized in the presence of the "spirit" of G--d. (De Bunsen, p. 45; Matthew 3:16.)
Both went to their temples at the age of twelve, where they are said to have astonished all with their wisdom. (Ibid., p. 37; Luke 2:41--48.)
When Buddha died: "The coverings of [his] body unrolled themselves, and the lid of his coffin was opened by supernatural powers." (De Bunsen, p. 49.)
Buddha answered the "devil": "Get you away from me." (De Bunsen, p.38) Jesus responded: "...begone, Satan!" (Matthew 4:10). Both experienced the "supernatural" after the "devil" left: For Buddha: "The skies rained flowers, and delicious odors prevailed [in] the air." (Ibid.) For Jesus: "angels came and ministered to him" (Matthew 4:11).
Source http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/buddha01.html
I suppose my question is...
Is it fair to say that these are misconceptions from the western translation of the vedic story of Shakyamuni Buddha, or is this story of Buddha among many Buddhas not important to applied Buddhism as defined as those who seek awakening.

[anista]

Re: The story of the Buddha compared to that of Christ.

Hello,

I'm not sure Ernest de Bunsen is a reliable source on this particular question. If it is the same Ernest de Bunsen that lived in the 19:th century, his knowledge of Buddhism would be scarce at best. If it is not the same de Bunsen, my apologies.

To my recollection, Buddha was never "baptized in the presence of the spirit of God", nor did he excel at the temple when he was 12 (he wasn't a Buddha when he was 12 to start with). As far as I know, he didn't get buried in a coffin, and I have never heard that the lid of said coffin was removed by supernatural powers.

Apart from a virgin birth (which in the Buddha's case is part of the Jatakas, a collection of legendary tales) I also fail to see the similarities with, say, Quetzalcoatl. Please, explain more, if you so wish.

I don't understand when you say "the vedic story of Shakyamuni Buddha". What Vedic story is this? The only Vedic story I know that could be considered similar is the birth of Indra, but that is not a story of the Buddha at all. Perhaps you refer to later Hindu stories of how Buddha is an avatar of a Hindu deity? From this perspective, no, I don't think it would be fair to say that this is a misconception from the western translation.

You ask about Buddha among many Buddhas, but again I fail to see what this has to do with the comparison between Jesus and Buddha. The story of Buddhas among Buddhas is important to applied buddhism, because it means that we can all be awakened, awakening does not belong to just one (supernatural) person.

I am very sorry if I have misunderstood your questions. Please correct me where you see fit.

All the best,

Anista

[Jundo]

Re: The story of the Buddha compared to that of Christ.

Hi,

Yes, I am not familiar with most of these stories and descriptions of the life of the Buddha, and I am doubtful. There are some interesting similarities in legend however, perhaps the same story that traveled around the world? For example ... the Buddha's (well, Sariputta's) walking on water:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/btg/btg86.htm

Miracle stories abound!

Buddha or any Ancestor, Jesus or any Saint (imho) dies and ... century by century ... those in the religion (looking from afar at what those attainments actually were on the part of their "religious heroes") start to imagine and fantasize and exaggerate their wonderful nature into something super-human. What was merely "Great, Profound and Wonderful" must become "Miraculous, Wondrous and (often) Ridiculous". The result is called an "hagiography", and what may be seen here.

A hagiography is a biography, usually of a saint or saintly person, and usually written to idealize their life or justify their sainthood. In other words, a hagiography is usually a positive presentation of a life, rather than an objective or critical biography. When using a hagiography as a research source, the purpose and style must be taken into consideration, as the writer probably omitted negative information and exaggerated, or even created, positive information about the subject of the hagiography. Lives of the saints are typically hagiographies.

Gassho, Jundo

[Dosho]

Re: The story of the Buddha compared to that of Christ.

To my recollection, Buddha was never "baptized in the presence of the spirit of God", nor did he excel at the temple when he was 12 (he wasn't a Buddha when he was 12 to start with)

Anista,

I would defer to your knowledge of these things, but was not Shakyamuni a Buddha when he was 12? My understanding has always been that we are all Buddha, but please correct me if I am mistaken.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Jundo]

Re: The story of the Buddha compared to that of Christ.

To my recollection, Buddha was never "baptized in the presence of the spirit of God", nor did he excel at the temple when he was 12 (he wasn't a Buddha when he was 12 to start with)

Anista,

I would defer to your knowledge of these things, but was not Shakyamuni a Buddha when he was 12? My understanding has always been that we are all Buddha, but please correct me if I am mistaken.

Gassho,
Dosho

Hi Dosho,

I might summarize the Mahayana Doctrine of "Original Buddhahood" this way: We are all Buddha all along, but it may take much work (perhaps lifetimes and lifetimes of work, although it can also be realized in an instant) to realize that fact and actually step into those big shoes.

So, the Buddha was not Buddha before he became Buddha ... although we are always all Buddha so nothing more to become! :shock:

Gassho, J

[anista]

Re: The story of the Buddha compared to that of Christ.

To my recollection, Buddha was never "baptized in the presence of the spirit of God", nor did he excel at the temple when he was 12 (he wasn't a Buddha when he was 12 to start with)

Anista,

I would defer to your knowledge of these things, but was not Shakyamuni a Buddha when he was 12? My understanding has always been that we are all Buddha, but please correct me if I am mistaken.

Gassho,
Dosho

Dosho,

He may have been a Buddha in ultimate truth, but not in conventional. Buddha is a title he himself started using once he was awakened, at the age of 30-something. Or, once he realized his own Buddha nature. Or, once he became what he already was. And all that. So he may be called a "Buddha", as in "we are all Buddhas", but he was not the awakened one. In this case, I'm pretty sure we are talking about conventional truth.

On the other hand, the concept that we are all Buddhas, doesn't mean that we have all realized our inherent Buddha nature. If so, we wouldn't need to practice at all, which was what lead Dogen to his search for the truth about that statement So, even in ultimate truth there is a Buddha, and there is a Buddha. No discrimination exists between them, yet one sees and one does not.

EDIT: Jundo beat me to it!

[Dosho]

Re: The story of the Buddha compared to that of Christ.

Anista & Jundo,

Thanks for the clarification!

Gassho,
Dosho

[Kaishin]

Re: The story of the Buddha compared to that of Christ.

Is it fair to say that these are misconceptions from the western translation...

All of history is misconception. I guess I don't understand where you're going with this...

[Jundo]

Re: The story of the Buddha compared to that of Christ.

The stories of Buddha being tempted by Maya (the Devil) both before his enlightenment (including during a sojourn in the desert) ... and after, at many times in his later life ... have some parallels. Stephen Batchelor has a lovely series of essays on that ... on how the Buddha needed temptation and delusion to realize and live Buddhahood ... on how the freedom and richness of life allow us the constant choice of good over the harms of evil ... in his wonderful book "Living with the Devil".

http://www.amazon.com/Living-Devil-Medi ... 1573222763

It is the kind of book though, so rich in each sentence and paragraph, that is best taken slowly, putting it down after each few pages. I took about a year, enjoying small bites each day. I will probably read it again at some point ... in small bites.

Perhaps we might say that Buddha needs the devil in much the way a fireman needs fire to be a fireman, or a cook needs well managed fire to make a feast!

Gassho, Jundo

[fendis]

Re: The story of the Buddha compared to that of Christ.

Buddha exists in Christianity, in the story of Barlaam and Josaphat.

[Jundo]

Re: The story of the Buddha compared to that of Christ.

Buddha exists in Christianity, in the story of Barlaam and Josaphat.

Hmmm interesting. I had never heard of this. But it seems the story changed and developed quite a great bit as it moved down the silk road.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barlaam_and_Josaphat

Anyway, stories are but stories. It is the Truths at the Heart of all stories that are most important.

Gassho, Jundo

[Seishin the Elder]

Re: The story of the Buddha compared to that of Christ.

I do remember this story in its retelling on their feast, Novemeber 19 (which happened to correspond to my birthday and made them special to me!). The Eastern Church, in its "simplicity", taught that these Indian princes and prophets became Christian; but the Church, in its "complexity", admits that this is a hagiographic retelling of Buddha's story to illustrate that the quest for spiritual liberation is universal.

Gassho,

Seishin Kyrill

[captkid]

Re: The story of the Buddha compared to that of Christ.

Greetings:
While both of these iconic leaders shaped the spiritual paths of humanity for millennia after their lives, I find they represent fundamentally opposite paths and possibly opposing destinations. To me, this becomes clear after looking past all the miracles and supernatural stuff.
First, Jesus was born in humble circumstances and grew to claim the titles “King of the Jews” and “Savior of mankind.” Siddhartha, born about six-hundred years earlier, entered life as a prince and blessed with the adoration of all in his word. He later renounced this title and gave up all he had. But the most important distinction between the two is how we attain what could be referred to as salvation.
Jesus said “I am the resurrection and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by me.” This is not an isolated statement, but the overriding theme of the New Testament. No matter how you live your life, it is only through grace and belief in Christ that you can achieve salvation.
The message of Buddha is just the opposite. No matter how great your teacher is, or how many people you have helping you, enlightenment can only be achieved by you. It is within your power alone and is ultimately your responsibility. I think it is important to keep those differences in mind as we each choose our path.
Thanks…Rob

[Amelia]

Re: The story of the Buddha compared to that of Christ.

Greetings:
While both of these iconic leaders shaped the spiritual paths of humanity for millennia after their lives, I find they represent fundamentally opposite paths and possibly opposing destinations. To me, this becomes clear after looking past all the miracles and supernatural stuff.
First, Jesus was born in humble circumstances and grew to claim the titles “King of the Jews” and “Savior of mankind.” Siddhartha, born about six-hundred years earlier, entered life as a prince and blessed with the adoration of all in his word. He later renounced this title and gave up all he had. But the most important distinction between the two is how we attain what could be referred to as salvation.
Jesus said “I am the resurrection and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by me.” This is not an isolated statement, but the overriding theme of the New Testament. No matter how you live your life, it is only through grace and belief in Christ that you can achieve salvation.
The message of Buddha is just the opposite. No matter how great your teacher is, or how many people you have helping you, enlightenment can only be achieved by you. It is within your power alone and is ultimately your responsibility. I think it is important to keep those differences in mind as we each choose our path.
Thanks…Rob

I never noticed this before... *facepalm*

[Jundo]

Re: The story of the Buddha compared to that of Christ.

Greetings:
While both of these iconic leaders shaped the spiritual paths of humanity for millennia after their lives, I find they represent fundamentally opposite paths and possibly opposing destinations. To me, this becomes clear after looking past all the miracles and supernatural stuff.
First, Jesus was born in humble circumstances and grew to claim the titles “King of the Jews” and “Savior of mankind.” Siddhartha, born about six-hundred years earlier, entered life as a prince and blessed with the adoration of all in his word. He later renounced this title and gave up all he had. But the most important distinction between the two is how we attain what could be referred to as salvation.
Jesus said “I am the resurrection and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by me.” This is not an isolated statement, but the overriding theme of the New Testament. No matter how you live your life, it is only through grace and belief in Christ that you can achieve salvation.
The message of Buddha is just the opposite. No matter how great your teacher is, or how many people you have helping you, enlightenment can only be achieved by you. It is within your power alone and is ultimately your responsibility. I think it is important to keep those differences in mind as we each choose our path.
Thanks…Rob

Hi Rob,

I am not so sure that it is this simple. Most Buddhist folks in Asia are as worshipful of Buddha as their "Messiah and Savior" (a "Messiah" who came from "Buddha Heaven" to save all beings) as most Christian folks are of Jesus. Jesus also emphasized self responsibility for one's conduct too ... and most Buddhists think that faith in Buddha is the "my way or the highway" way. I could go on and on with the parallels and/or differences, but let us just say ... depends how you look at these things.

The first words out of the Baby Buddha's mouth (he was born walkin' and talkin') are said to be these ... although just "miracles and supernatural stuff" ... and although just "how the words are interpreted" ...

On being born, it is said, the Buddha took seven steps in each of the four cardinal directions, pointed with one hand up and one hand down, and said, “Above the heavens, below the earth, I alone am the world honored one.”

Of course, other versions have the words a bit different (for example, the official "Soto-shu" web page has the quote as "“Heaven, earth and I are all one person”), and words are just words. I tend to look at "Buddha" as a human being of flesh and blood, a psychologist and philosopher, and man of great wisdom and compassion. He also was/saw/embodied something sacred, beyond what the eye can usually discern ... but so are/is/can you and me!

Anyway, many paths up the mountain for different folks, and many ways two climbers will interpret the very same path!

Gassho, Jundo