Yep, rebirth again...

[disastermouse]

Ok, Treeleafers, what's your take? I 'believe' in rebith, but oddly, my description of what I think it is would probably pass muster with 'non-rebirthers'. Stephanie and I had a long, detailed, and entirely civil discussion about this and I wondered what sort of conversation we could have about it here.

Gassh,

Chet

[Taylor]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

I wouldn't say I necessarily believe in rebirth. It's not that I don't, or that I can't, it's that I've never really given any sort of weight to the post-death experience. IMHO it's a bit strange to worry about it. I spent a year at a tibetan center where all everyone talked about was preparing for their next life. Accumulating good karma now to have a more fortunate rebirth later. Seemed to me like they were missing out on the fortunate life they had right now!

But anyways, to keep it simple, no I don't believe in rebirth in the literal sense. When I go I'll be eaten up by all the little microbes which will eventually nourish bigger and bigger organisms so in that sense I will be "reborn" I suppose. But as everything! All my little atoms will be all over the place :P

Gassho,
Taylor

[Saijun]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

Hello Chet,

Since you asked, I believe in the literal, scriptural definition of rebirth. Not because it's "traditional" or "exotic" or what have you, but because I've had enough time to verify the teachings that I can accept things that I don't necessarily have proof of; I know that the teachings are correct and this verification can be done in the here-and-now. Once one realizes that, over and over again, what's being taught is correct and true in one's own life, it becomes easier to entertain the notion of things that you can't prove or disprove right this second.

Having said that, when I die Perry/Saijun is gone forever. I am a conditioned being, and when those conditions are done, I'm gone. I am a result of everything that has happened to me in this life, and when this life is done, that's all she wrote for me.

Having said that, it also follows that this human birth is fortunate. Meeting the Dharma is fortunate. Meeting a teacher of the Dharma and a Sangha that practices in accordance with the Dharma is fortunate. So it's very important to not waste this chance.

This life has conditions stretching back into beginningless history, and as such it's important for me to practice as diligently as possible.

Just my view.

Metta and Gassho,

Saijun

[Seiryu]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

I guess I believe in rebirth, that we continue on after this life, as what, I'm not sure. It just makes sense to me. I mean every action we take has effects that go on long into the future, so maybe our whole being too goes on. But like Taylor said, I was also(and still am to some degree) looking at the Tibetan tradition, and it does seems that they pay more attention to the next life rather than looking at the fortunate life we all have in front of us. As Brad Warner said if you believe in rebirth than you have to believe that this very life is the after life.

I do think rebirth is possible, but in the big scheme of things I don't think it is as important as some Buddhist make it out to be.

I wish to be fully present in this life, in this moment. If there is a next life, I wish to be full present there as well.

Gassho

Seiryu

[Taigu]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

Hi Chet,

As a Zen priest and through my very limited experience, I learned to spit metaphysics. Why? Where? Who? are simply questions that don't make sense to me anymore. I don't say life doesn 't carry on, consciousness doesn 't carry on, I don't say it does. I don't know and keep open to whatever takes place. But what is this now is not conditioned by this tomorrow.
On top of this, this body is arising and disappearing every split second. What people call begining cannot be seen, end cannot be fathomed. The metaphor of the wave and the water or the drop of rain and the sea usedto describe the relationship beteween life and death sound great but are mere metaphors.
Brad is right again. If any rebirth is taking place it is but here and now.
Anything else feeds fears and hopes, food for dogs, religious fanatics, egodriven shaking guys ( and there is a bit os all these aspects in what is called "me").

The true self is really big and embraces all aspects, in doing so it also swallows birth and death.

Birth, death and rebirth are born, live and pass away and through the gate of the true selfless self.

gassho

Taigu

[disastermouse]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

Having said that, when I die Perry/Saijun is gone forever. I am a conditioned being, and when those conditions are done, I'm gone. I am a result of everything that has happened to me in this life, and when this life is done, that's all she wrote for me.

This is similar to my view, but you know that already.



Chet

[disastermouse]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

Hi Chet,

As a Zen priest and through my very limited experience, I learned to spit metaphysics. Why? Where? Who? are simply questions that don't make sense to me anymore. I don't say life doesn 't carry on, consciousness doesn 't carry on, I don't say it does. I don't know and keep open to whatever takes place. But what is this now is not conditioned by this tomorrow.
On top of this, this body is arising and disappearing every split second. What people call begining cannot be seen, end cannot be fathomed. The metaphor of the wave and the water or the drop of rain and the sea usedto describe the relationship beteween life and death sound great but are mere metaphors.
Brad is right again. If any rebirth is taking place it is but here and now.
Anything else feeds fears and hopes, food for dogs, religious fanatics, egodriven shaking guys ( and there is a bit os all these aspects in what is called "me").

The true self is really big and embraces all aspects, in doing so it also swallows birth and death.

Birth, death and rebirth are born, live and pass away and through the gate of the true selfless self.

gassho

Taigu

I wholeheartedly concur, Taigu.

Chet

[disastermouse]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

My most urgent thought about rebirth is that Batchelor and others seem to try to squeeze Buddhism into a scientific materialist worldview, as if rebirth isn't something that needs to be considered 'real' Buddhism, when for a great many Buddhists, it is quite real - and not just a folk-Buddhist sense of rebirth that is really more like reincarnation, but rebirth in a more sophisticated sense that doesn't rely on mind/body dualism or cheap metaphysics.

Great respect,

Chet

[Eika]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

One funny thing about this practice, for me anyway, has been that the very questions that I was wanting to have answered by Buddhism/Zen have now been rendered immaterial. The questions were the problem . . . I see it now, but it took a while, and I still revert to worrying about them from time to time. Like Taigu said, who, what, where, when, and why are not the questions I get worked up about much anymore. Sure, I'd enjoy learning an answer to them, but they simply are not a real priority anymore.

That being said, my gut tells me we are a process and are in a constant state of simultaneous death and rebirth. So, when the end comes, I imagine it will be no different than the millions of other times that my little sparks I call consciousness forgot themselves for a moment and just did what was natural for them to do at the time. Firewood does not become ashes. Death can't really be that big of a deal . . . look at all the other idiots who've done it! If they can do it, so can I. Seriously, I think the short-term period right before death might really suck if one was in terrible pain, confusion, etc., but death itself is nothing other than the normal functioning of me/universe. I'm just not in any hurry to do it . . . I've got kids to raise and see through their ups and downs. Whatever happens after that, at least I'll be out from under my mortgage.

Gassho,
Eika

[Jundo]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

Hi,

I do not believe in literal post-mortem "come back as a bunny rabbit or wild fox" or "go to a heaven or hell" views of rebirth. Or, better said, I am an open minded but skeptical agnostic on the subject (and think it probably superstition). I do know we are reborn constantly, moment by moment. I sometimes write this:

If there are futures lives, heavens or hells ... I will fetch water and chop wood, seeking to live in a gentle way, avoiding harm to self and others (not two, by the way).

If there are no future lives, heavens or hells ... I will fetch water and chop wood, seeking to live in a gentle way, avoiding harm to self and others (not two, by the way).

I do not know if, in the next life, that "gentle way, avoiding harm" will buy me a ticket to heaven and keep me out of hell or allow a better rebirth ... but I know for a fact that it will go far to do so in this life, today, where I see people create all manner of "heavens and hells" for themselves and those around them by their harmful words, thoughts and acts in this life.

And if there is a "heaven and hell" in the next life, or other effects of Karma now ... well, my actions now have effects then too, and might be the ticket to heaven or good rebirth.

In other words, whatever the case ... today, now ... live in a gentle way, avoiding harm to self and others (not two, by the way) ... seeking to avoid harm now and in the future too.

Certainly, we are passing away and reborn in every instant ... and the effects of our actions, good and bad, spread out in ripples of effect far into the future ... impacting us and those around us in this world (not two).

Actually, the very best evidence I can muster for literal rebirth is this:

Since something so seemingly unlikely, unnecessary yet wondrous happened once ... despite all the seeming chances in universal history for events to meander off in a very different direction away from any possibility for our birth ... and despite all the seeming "just right" happenstances of physics and universal development over the billions of years if not more, the "just what we needed" balances of chemistry, good fortunes of biology, hospitable planetary development of this world, twists and turns of evolution and human history ... yet, despite how ridiculous it seems that things worked out right even once to allow our fragile birth on this world even once ...

... since such a silly and apparently unlikely thing happened even once (so unlikely that it might be seen, from one perspective, as you and I having won every lottery of every moment through the 13.7 billion years of post-big bang history when things might have turned out quite otherwise at any cross-road of events or crucial point) ...

... since such an unbelievably fortunate and lovely thing (even though, sometimes, nature seems a very imperfect creative power) happened despite all that EVEN ONCE ...

... WELL, IT MIGHT AS WELL RIDICULOUSLY HAPPEN AGAIN! :shock:

I mean that sincerely. It makes me sense quite securely, in my bones, and feel quite sure that "this ain't all there was/is/will be".

Yes, these are BIG QUESTIONS ... and I ask folks to look at these two threads in particular in our "BIG QUESTIONS" series ...

viewforum.php?f=24

especially this one:

Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI (Karma)
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1281

and this one:

Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VII (Life After Death?)
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1429

Gassho, J

[Eika]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

My most urgent thought about rebirth is that Batchelor and others seem to try to squeeze Buddhism into a scientific materialist worldview, as if rebirth isn't something that needs to be considered 'real' Buddhism, when for a great many Buddhists, it is quite real - and not just a folk-Buddhist sense of rebirth that is really more like reincarnation, but rebirth in a more sophisticated sense that doesn't rely on mind/body dualism or cheap metaphysics.

Great respect,

Chet

As I reread my last post I realized I came across sounding like I had somehow "moved beyond" such questions. That was not my intention as I've certainly done no such thing. I was trying to say that I've sat with and dropped the sort of questions that Batchelor keeps bringing up so many times that I've just grown tired of thinking about them. I've surrendered. I'm, today anyway, resigned to be an idiot on such things. So, to that extent I'm not fit to comment on his question, valid as it may be, because I simply don't have anything resembling a conclusive thought on the matter . He has forgotten more about Buddhism than I will probably ever know, so I'm content to continue sitting with the myriad perspectives that everyone brings to me regarding Buddhism and leave it be. Sorry, it's been a rough week at work.

Peace,
Eika

[Ryumon]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

My most urgent thought about rebirth is that Batchelor and others seem to try to squeeze Buddhism into a scientific materialist worldview, as if rebirth isn't something that needs to be considered 'real' Buddhism, when for a great many Buddhists, it is quite real - and not just a folk-Buddhist sense of rebirth that is really more like reincarnation, but rebirth in a more sophisticated sense that doesn't rely on mind/body dualism or cheap metaphysics.

Great respect,

Chet

As I reread my last post I realized I came across sounding like I had somehow "moved beyond" such questions. That was not my intention as I've certainly done no such thing. I was trying to say that I've sat with and dropped the sort of questions that Batchelor keeps bringing up so many times that I've just grown tired of thinking about them. I've surrendered. I'm, today anyway, resigned to be an idiot on such things. So, to that extent I'm not fit to comment on his question, valid as it may be, because I simply don't have anything resembling a conclusive thought on the matter . He has forgotten more about Buddhism than I will probably ever know, so I'm content to continue sitting with the myriad perspectives that everyone brings to me regarding Buddhism and leave it be. Sorry, it's been a rough week at work.

And, reading Batchelor, I disagree that he "tr[ies] to squeeze Buddhism into a scientific materialist worldview."

His view, in the last book of his I read, is more that of Elka's; he can't know anything about it, no more than anyone else can. He's not ready to take it on faith, but if others want to, that's up to them. That's the way I've always felt myself. There's no proof that rebirth/reincarnation exists, and these are, it should be pointed out, pre-Buddhist concepts, that were grafted on to early Buddhism. I just try and worry about the here and now.

[Dokan]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

To give my opinion, I can just give re-birth to the thoughts already shared...

I've never really given any sort of weight to the post-death experience. IMHO it's a bit strange to worry about it. ......missing out on the fortunate life they had right now!

it's important for me to practice as diligently as possible.

I wish to be fully present in this life, in this moment. If there is a next life, I wish to be full present there as well.

I don't know and keep open to whatever takes place. But what is this now is not conditioned by this tomorrow. ...The true self is really big and embraces all aspects, in doing so it also swallows birth and death.

Firewood does not become ashes. Death can't really be that big of a deal . . .

Gassho,

Shawn

[disastermouse]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

My most urgent thought about rebirth is that Batchelor and others seem to try to squeeze Buddhism into a scientific materialist worldview, as if rebirth isn't something that needs to be considered 'real' Buddhism, when for a great many Buddhists, it is quite real - and not just a folk-Buddhist sense of rebirth that is really more like reincarnation, but rebirth in a more sophisticated sense that doesn't rely on mind/body dualism or cheap metaphysics.

Great respect,

Chet

As I reread my last post I realized I came across sounding like I had somehow "moved beyond" such questions. That was not my intention as I've certainly done no such thing. I was trying to say that I've sat with and dropped the sort of questions that Batchelor keeps bringing up so many times that I've just grown tired of thinking about them. I've surrendered. I'm, today anyway, resigned to be an idiot on such things. So, to that extent I'm not fit to comment on his question, valid as it may be, because I simply don't have anything resembling a conclusive thought on the matter . He has forgotten more about Buddhism than I will probably ever know, so I'm content to continue sitting with the myriad perspectives that everyone brings to me regarding Buddhism and leave it be. Sorry, it's been a rough week at work.

And, reading Batchelor, I disagree that he "tr[ies] to squeeze Buddhism into a scientific materialist worldview."

His view, in the last book of his I read, is more that of Elka's; he can't know anything about it, no more than anyone else can. He's not ready to take it on faith, but if others want to, that's up to them. That's the way I've always felt myself. There's no proof that rebirth/reincarnation exists, and these are, it should be pointed out, pre-Buddhist concepts, that were grafted on to early Buddhism. I just try and worry about the here and now.

That's my point - Batchelor considers teachings about rebirth to be an error. I don't think it's as simple as that. Also, I see Dogen's famous line as a clarification of rebirth, not a repudiation.

Chet

[Rich]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

I'm thinkin if I give my practice a good go maybe I'll be reborn in the next week or two closer to a Buddha who uses skillful means to lesson suffering for himself and others. But if that doesn't work out, taking a long term view of things I'm very interested in the Pure Land where all the Buddhas hang out. Now I'm not so naive to think that Rich the body/mind could be there but there is something that seems to go on forever. But then again not knowing seems to be enough so maybe this is just a figment of my imagination. :?: