Beginner's Sutra Studies

[Dokan]

Hello all,

So I have been 'formalizing' my practice, all the while trying to keep it free from attachments and rigidity. I've been taking a modified MRO approach (Daido Loori's 8 Gates of Zen) and expanding my practice in various areas. Body has been picking back up Tai Chi, art is my recent foray into suizen with the shakuhachi, and my next focus was academic study.

For this area, I've thought about doing some studies into the original Buddhist texts. Much of my reading over the years have been of Zen teachers expounding on Zen practice. However, I've never put forth a concerted effort to study the sutras myself. I've read through some commentaries, like Red Pine's on the Heart Sutra, but I guess I'm thinking something more formal and a 'deeper dive'.

So I'm turning to my friends at the sangha. I know that many times in the past I've seen our PITs, Saijun and others provide much detail and am hoping that you all could give me some guidance as to where is a good place to start. I had been thinking about maybe starting some more intensive studies on Dogen, but maybe he could be an entire separate category of focus as his work is so voluminous.

Thanks in advance.

Gassho,

Shawn

[Jundo]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Hi Shawn,

Sutta/Sutra reading and study is, at some point, very important to our Practice. Even the Zen Masters of the past who were "beyond words and letters" usually were so once they had already become quite familiar with the "words and letters" (although some radicals did burn the books even before reading them).

However, as we have discussed here a few times, the various Sutta/Sutra were all written by Buddhist authors offering very many varied prescriptions and interpretations of Buddhist teachings (even sometimes within the very same Sutta/Sutra!). I sometimes post this ...

Reading the Sutras is important at some point in the practice of a Buddhist, although there is something about them that we now understand which was not so well known even 100 years ago: Namely, none of them (and I mean none of them) were actually "written during the lifetime of the historical Buddha" (even the oldest that we have were not written down until several hundred years after his death, before which the tradition was passed from generation to generation orally). The teachings were passed down orally alone (which may or may not have been a sloppy process, with much corruption of the original), until somebody finally wrote them all down hundreds of years after he was dead ... and then all the Buddhists immediately set to disagreeing about which of them had the "authentic" teachings, and exactly what they meant!

What is more, teachings evolved and developed in all schools (even the South Asian "Theravadan" traditions, which have the image of being "closer to the original" than the Northern Asian Mahayana traditions have themselves been evolving and developing for 2500 years, and don't even agree among themselves on important details).

Nobody knows exactly what the original Buddha taught, not even the greatest Buddhist scholars, historians or monks. (I just finished a book by Bronkhurst (discussed here: http://www.westernbuddhistreview.com/vo ... ation.html), one of the great Buddhist historians ... they can only guess.

What is more, the Mahayana traditions, of which China, Japan, Korea and much of Vietnam are part, including all the Zen schools (and don't even bring in Tibet and "Vajrayana Esoteric Buddhism"!), are a conscious break from the original flavor of Buddhism (with Sutras that are, each and every one, the works of later authors who pretended that what they were writing were "the revealed words of the Buddha". Of course, they don't say that they are a conscious break, but rather that they are teaching the "real" teachings of the Buddha, who did not really mean (or considered to be "lesser" teachings) everything else attributed to him. In fact, they are each the works of writers (sometimes a mix of many writers), each with a particular philosophical view, who put words in the Buddha's mouth. In addition, commentators on these Sutras come in 1001 flavors, depending on who the commentator is (for example, the Heart Sutra can be read several different ways ... and has been).

In other words, anyone reading these Suttas/Sutras/Commentaries must be an educated reader about what they are reading, how it is translated, and what the philosophical bent of the true writer(s) was, and where that particular work fits in the complex universe of Buddhist writings. They can often (even within the same book) say things in complete disagreement, and from radically different philosophies of Buddhism.

Right now I am on my second cover to cover reading of the Surangama Sutra. Among the other Mahayana works cherished in one way or another in the Chan/Zen world, there is also the Lankavatara Sutra, the Lotus Sutra (so vital to Dogen's writings and world view), the Mahaparinirvana Sutra (also called the Nirvana Sutra, not to be confused with the Nirvana Sutta), the Vimalakirti Sutra (which will be the subject of our next "Whatsa Bodhisattva" talk), the Heart Sutra and other Perfection of Wisdom literature such as the Diamond Sutra, and perhaps the Flower Garland (Hua-yen) Sutra. An excellent introductory collection to the Pali Suttas is ...

In the Buddha's Words: An Anthology of Discourses from the Pali Canon

... a fantastic anthology of the "best of" the Pali Canon. Bhikkha Bodhi's footnotes do tend to offer interpretations from his particular flavor of Theravadan Buddhism, but the Sutta's themselves speak to all of us.

A wonderful attempt at biography based closely on the Pali Canon is the very readable The Life of the Buddha by Bhikkhu Nanamoli.

Of course, in Zen, we read all these words ... not to philosophize about them ... but to see through them, experience them, find the commonality that shines through. All are different but the same, precisely the same but VERY different.

However, it can be a minefield just to jump into the tangle. For that reason, I would first STRONGLY recommend having a good foundation in Buddhist history and the development of its various philosophies BEFORE diving into the tangle. Two recommend books to read first are ...

• Buddhist Thought, A Complete Introduction to the Indian Tradition, Paul Williams and Anthony Tribe.** (Although meant as an introductory textbook, still wonderfully detailed ... although the writing is poor in places. I recommend this somewhat ahead of the ... books, by Walpola Rahula and David Kalipahana, for both readability and the presence of less of a personal religious ideology that tends to cloud the impartiality of those other books)
• Mahayana Buddhism, The Doctrinal Foundations, by Paul Williams (there is a new second edition, but the first edition is still excellent ... and can be had a bit cheaper)

Gassho, Jundo

[Jiken]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Hey Shards,

I just read this book, Realizing Genjokoan: The Key to Dogen's Shobogenzo by
Shohaku Okumura. It might be what you are looking for delving in Dogen and parallels with the Heart Sutra. Take a look at it. I found it worthwhile.

[Kyonin]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Thanks for bringing this subject up.

Even though I have read Sutras, I have yet to study them in a more dedicated way and now I have some pointers.

Like you, Shawn, I really want to take my studies to a more formal level.

[Taigu]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Yes, Realizing Genjokoan is one of the bet books out there to introduce Dogen thinking about life-practice and a wonderful gate into Buddhist theory too.

Gassho


Taigu

[Rich]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Yes, Realizing Genjokoan is one of the bet books out there to introduce Dogen thinking about life-practice and a wonderful gate into Buddhist theory too.

Gassho


Taigu

Great book! any time you feel like reading, just open it anywhere.

Jundo, I just ordered, Buddhist Thought, A Complete Introduction to the Indian Tradition, Paul Williams and Anthony Tribe,, Thanks for your direction.

Rather than holding on to all this Buddhist Thought, I'll try to digest it.

[Dokan]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Right now I am on my second cover to cover reading of the Surangama Sutra. Among the other Mahayana works cherished in one way or another in the Chan/Zen world, there is also the Lankavatara Sutra, the Lotus Sutra (so vital to Dogen's writings and world view) and (my personal favorite) the Vimalakirti Sutra (which will be the subject of our next "Whatsa Bodhisattva" talk), the Heart Sutra and other Perfection of Wisdom literature, and perhaps the Flower Garland (Hua-yen) Sutra. An excellent introductory collection to the Pali Suttas is this, discussed here ...

Great information Jundo, thank you. I had purchased "A Buddhist Bible" as it seemed to have a decent collection of cannon. I understand (from another thread) that this has it's own 'flavour' as it tries to be similar to the Christian Bible. But I am/was just simply trying to find my way through this massive collection of writings. Realizing all along that my sitting practice is the core.

However, it can be a minefield just to jump into the tangle. For that reason, I would first STRONGLY recommend having a good foundation in Buddhist history and the development of its various philosophies BEFORE diving into the tangle. Two recommend books to read first are ...

• Buddhist Thought, A Complete Introduction to the Indian Tradition, Paul Williams and Anthony Tribe.** (Although meant as an introductory textbook, still wonderfully detailed ... although the writing is poor in places. I recommend this somewhat ahead of the ... books, by Walpola Rahula and David Kalipahana, for both readability and the presence of less of a personal religious ideology that tends to cloud the impartiality of those other books)
• Mahayana Buddhism, The Doctrinal Foundations, by Paul Williams (there is a new second edition, but the first edition is still excellent ... and can be had a bit cheaper)

Fantastic information and thank you for this. I will look at starting here before delving too deeply into the sutras, just to give a background.

I just read this book, Realizing Genjokoan: The Key to Dogen's Shobogenzo by Shohaku Okumura.

Yes! I am actually reading this as well on my Kindle. Have been enjoying it immensely. So much to chew on in there. I have also ordered (and should have today) Tanahashi's new translation of Shobogenzo which I hope will be something to chew on for some time. In many ways however, I see Dogen as something of a constant study. What I have read I find that I can always go back and re-read and get something else from it. Thank you for this tip!

Thanks to all of you for your advice, it's always welcomed. I will pick up Buddhist Thought and maybe Mahayana Buddhism and read through those before diving into the vast ocean that is the Buddhist cannon.

Gassho,

Shawn

[TomB]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Thanks for posting this shards. Although I have read some of the sutras I am now inspired to study them in more detail.

[Jundo]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Great information Jundo, thank you. I had purchased "A Buddhist Bible" as it seemed to have a decent collection of cannon. I understand (from another thread) that this has it's own 'flavour' as it tries to be similar to the Christian Bible. But I am/was just simply trying to find my way through this massive collection of writings. Realizing all along that my sitting practice is the core.

Hi Shawn,

Yes, I wrote this about "A Buddhist Bible" once ...

Well, Dwight Goddard's "Buddhist Bible" is a beautiful book, and perhaps the first large-scale attempt to translate a variety of Sutra into English. However, I believe that most of those translations were done in the 1920's, can be pretty rough or just plain off meaning at times (Mr. Goddard was an engineer who had lived for years in China, but with rather limited in his knowledge of the source languages), and were by a translator who was making a conscious effort to use the style of the Old Testament Bible in his presentation. So, it should be approached with some understanding of that, and there are much more artful translations of most of the Sutras it contains that were done later. However, it is still a very lovely book.

It is available free online from several sources.

http://books.google.com/books?id=kYSOnei4mEcC&dq=dwight+goddard+buddhist+bible&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=zsOWTJbyFoKKvgO6k8GaDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false

Gassho, J

[Rich]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Important. Sutras

Diamond sutra
Heart sutra
Mahaparinirvana sutra
lotus sutra
Avatamsaka sutra

[Jundo]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Important. Sutras

Mahaparinirvana sutra

Yes, forgot that one on the list! Thanks Rich.

Gassho, Jundo

[Mari]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Yes, Realizing Genjokoan is one of the bet books out there to introduce Dogen thinking about life-practice and a wonderful gate into Buddhist theory too.

I decided to order this book based on this recommendation. I realized I needed some sort of explanation/introduction after I started listening to an audio version of Moon in a Dewdrop and couldn't really understand much of what was being read. I tend to do better with a "hard copy" in my hand that I can go back over when I need to, rather than listening and trying to sort out what's being said while I'm listening. I miss too much that way and get lost.

[Rich]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Diamond Sutra

I just found this modern contemporary translation.

http://www.diamond-sutra.com/index.html

[Saijun]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Hello Shawn,

I'd suggest the Sutras and commentaries here for a really good spread of Sutra/suttas, philosophical/cultural foundations, and commentary. If I'm looking for something specific, I tend to go to BuddhaSutra to find Mahayana sources (with checking to make sure that the particular translation isn't WAAAY out there when compared to others online), and Access to Insight for Theravadin sources and perspectives.

I'm sure that there are people here who could point to Vajryana sources, but I don't know of any (nor do I look, as they are waaaaay out of my league from what I've found, with exceptions like the Way of the Bodhisattva or Lamp for the Path to Enlightenment, which I find a little more accessible).

I really do hope this helps!

Metta and Gassho,

Saijun

[Kaishin]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Right now I am on my second cover to cover reading of the Surangama Sutra. Among the other Mahayana works cherished in one way or another in the Chan/Zen world, there is also the Lankavatara Sutra, the Lotus Sutra (so vital to Dogen's writings and world view) and (my personal favorite) the Vimalakirti Sutra (which will be the subject of our next "Whatsa Bodhisattva" talk), the Heart Sutra and other Perfection of Wisdom literature, and perhaps the Flower Garland (Hua-yen) Sutra. An excellent introductory collection to the Pali Suttas is this, discussed here ...

Thank you for this list.

I have definitely encountered the contradictory passages you mention in reading the Pali texts, especially in comparison to later Mahayana texts. It's impossible to know "what the Buddha taught" beyond the four noble truths (and maybe even that...but they are so straightforward). That's why I find your reminder that sitting is the most important practice so valuable. "Now" is the only thing we can know/experience for sure...

Gassho,
Matt

P.S. I was searching for Realizing Genjokoan at my library, and came across this book, which has not yet been released:

http://www.amazon.com/Dogens-Genjo-Koan ... 552&sr=8-1

Not sure if it will be of any value...