REMINDER FROM JUNDO: THE (NON)NEED FOR SITTING ZAZEN

[ChrisA]

Re: REMINDER FROM JUNDO: THE (NON)NEED FOR SITTING ZAZEN

I'm reading Moon in a Dewdrop now and can provide a relevant quote in the section titled "You should seek a true teacher to practice Zen and study the way." Note "true teacher," and also note the historical/geographic references Dogen makes to Japan and China:

In this small, remote nation buddha-dharma has not yet spread widely. True masters have not appeared here. If you wish to study the unsurpassed buddha way, you have to travel a great distance to call on the masters in Song China, and you have to reflect deeply on the vital road outside thought. Until you have a true teacher, it is better not to study.

I've read a lot of references to that last sentence in which the modifier "true" is ignored, and given the broader context of the Guidelines for Studying the Way, I think it's vital.

I mean, I think that Dogen was looking around Japan and seeing a bunch of teachers who were letting "people neglect the root and go out on the limbs," as he says. He thus was advocating for quality teachers who could provide the "special transmission" of which Bodhidharma spoke. I think.

[Eika]

Re: REMINDER FROM JUNDO: THE (NON)NEED FOR SITTING ZAZEN

However I once heard in a Dharma talk that Dogen said one does not need a teacher for Zazen. Only if one wishes to study Buddhism is a teacher necessary. Just something to ponder...

Gassho,
John

Hi, John.

I've always interpreted that as meaning that zazen does not require any ongoing instruction; once you've been shown how to do it, there's not much more to teach . . . Zen/Buddhism as a larger entity is a different matter (not to mention one's life). Perhaps that's not what Dogen meant, but that's been my interpretation of it.

Gassho,
Eika

[Hoyu]

Re: REMINDER FROM JUNDO: THE (NON)NEED FOR SITTING ZAZEN

Chet wrote:
You can misuse zazen, but done properly under guidance of a true teacher, it's still the single most non-egoic (not anti-egoic) practice one can undertake. As a laggard and often confused person, it's still my humble opinion.

Hi Chet,
I personally agree in the need for the guidance of a teacher. Even for Zazen. However I once heard in a Dharma talk that Dogen said one does not need a teacher for Zazen. Only if one wishes to study Buddhism is a teacher necessary. Just something to ponder...

Gassho,
John

Re: REMINDER FROM JUNDO: THE (NON)NEED FOR SITTING ZAZEN

Until recently, I haven't been sitting zazen as much lately - so even as a hypocrite, my view is still that daily zazen practice is VITAL to our path of zazen. More vital than kenshos or satories, more vital than dana, or scripture study, or samu, or any other of the myriad other ways we practice.

You can misuse zazen, but done properly under guidance of a true teacher, it's still the single most non-egoic (not anti-egoic) practice one can undertake. As a laggard and often confused person, it's still my humble opinion.

Chet

[Hoyu]

Re: REMINDER FROM JUNDO: THE (NON)NEED FOR SITTING ZAZEN

Jundo wrote:
In all cases, sit as what is.

Best advice ever! Simple yet profound is the way of no way.

Gassho,
John

[Jundo]

Re: REMINDER FROM JUNDO: THE (NON)NEED FOR SITTING ZAZEN

However, Shikantaza is unique in finding the most special state right here all along when all closed-ness and resistance is let go, when we stop to run from here in search of answers found just over the ever more distant horizon. The miracle is the most ordinary through and through, just this moment as pure magic when tasted such. Thus, there is an overall Joy which sweeps in and comes to life as the happy days and the sad, a Peace of One Piece that holds and heals both peace and foolish wars, all the broken pieces. One is Rich in Treasure free of lack or gain, unlocked by a key always in hand.

Jundo,

This is so beautifully put. I totally agree. You can pray to any supreme power, but when it comes down to it and dig reality, our only tool is sitting.

Believing in gods may work for a lot of people indeed, but being here and now and shut your mind's noise for a bit, on a daily basis is what we need tu see the mines on the minefield.

Thank you.

I will sit on this today.

Deep bows.

Hi Choco,

Well, it might be just the same with or without believing in God, gods or other supreme power.

If there is a God or Gods, sit with that ... that is what is.

If there is no God or Gods, sit with that ... that is what is.

In all cases, sit as what is.

Gassho, J

[Kyonin]

Re: REMINDER FROM JUNDO: THE (NON)NEED FOR SITTING ZAZEN

However, Shikantaza is unique in finding the most special state right here all along when all closed-ness and resistance is let go, when we stop to run from here in search of answers found just over the ever more distant horizon. The miracle is the most ordinary through and through, just this moment as pure magic when tasted such. Thus, there is an overall Joy which sweeps in and comes to life as the happy days and the sad, a Peace of One Piece that holds and heals both peace and foolish wars, all the broken pieces. One is Rich in Treasure free of lack or gain, unlocked by a key always in hand.

Jundo,

This is so beautifully put. I totally agree. You can pray to any supreme power, but when it comes down to it and dig reality, our only tool is sitting.

Believing in gods may work for a lot of people indeed, but being here and now and shut your mind's noise for a bit, on a daily basis is what we need tu see the mines on the minefield.

Thank you.

I will sit on this today.

Deep bows.

[Dosho]

Re: REMINDER FROM JUNDO: THE (NON)NEED FOR SITTING ZAZEN

Maybe I'm missing the point here, but would it be helpful to look at the question of "need" to sit zazen from a different angle? I will grant there may be other ways to peace, enlightenment, nirvana, etc. than zazen, but why would you, or anyone, Not sit? Why would any of us Not include the practice of zazen in our overall practice?

I would exclude it or lessen its frequency if I was either using it in an obsessive way or as a means to avoid the interactions of daily life. Now, for me that's unlikely since I tend to resist sitting more than samu or other practices and am more likely get engrossed in samu (say either yard work or sewing the kesa), thus making it something to distract from living amongst people or where I am missing the point and trying to attain a goal or some specific end. When that happens I switch my emphasis to other practices, usually more sitting. However, I could envision a time when the reverse would be true, especially if I were trying to achieve kensho or satori and have gotten off track so to speak. If that were to happen I'd probably do more samu than sitting.

Despite all that, I think there is a reason it usually comes back to sitting, especially where shikantaza is so central to what we do here. I'm not sure why that is exactly...heck, I don't know what zen is exactly, but I can say that over the long term doing just samu probably wouldn't work and any switch would just be temporary. I speak from recent experience, since I have been sitting less frequently the last few weeks and doing more samu. And let's just say that it's beginning to show. I honestly think in the reverse situation (avoiding samu and doing lots of sitting) it would not be as much of an issue, but I can't really provide a clear explanation of why.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Eika]

Re: REMINDER FROM JUNDO: THE (NON)NEED FOR SITTING ZAZEN

Maybe I'm missing the point here, but would it be helpful to look at the question of "need" to sit zazen from a different angle? I will grant there may be other ways to peace, enlightenment, nirvana, etc. than zazen, but why would you, or anyone, Not sit? Why would any of us Not include the practice of zazen in our overall practice?

Great point, Alan. Zazen is, after all, the ol' Shaky himself did it.

[AlanLa]

Re: REMINDER FROM JUNDO: THE (NON)NEED FOR SITTING ZAZEN

Maybe I'm missing the point here, but would it be helpful to look at the question of "need" to sit zazen from a different angle? I will grant there may be other ways to peace, enlightenment, nirvana, etc. than zazen, but why would you, or anyone, Not sit? Why would any of us Not include the practice of zazen in our overall practice?

[JohnsonCM]

Re: REMINDER FROM JUNDO: THE (NON)NEED FOR SITTING ZAZEN

When the laundry is dirty, wash it. Such is the essence of Zen.

[will]

Re: REMINDER FROM JUNDO: THE (NON)NEED FOR SITTING ZAZEN

We can talk all about it, but lets do the laundry.

Gassho Breakfast

Will

[Eika]

Re: REMINDER FROM JUNDO: THE (NON)NEED FOR SITTING ZAZEN

Beautiful music will only manifest if the musician practices.

Gassho,
Eika

[JohnsonCM]

Re: REMINDER FROM JUNDO: THE (NON)NEED FOR SITTING ZAZEN

Seriously, I don't think anyone really needs to study or practice Zen. However, like Jundo said that's why we practice it. My small self centered Zen practice opens when it does. "My" dogs (who are not my dogs), don't practice Zen. They sleep, run, sniff, and watch. Though, as Suzuki said "we are not dogs" (You figure that one out).

The breeze is blowing, samu, Zazen, samu, Zazen, action, peace, and so on. That's my beginners perspective.

Gassho

W

I don't know, "sleep, run, sniff, watch." ......Sounds like dog Zen practice to me.

When you are wholly who and what you are, free from the bondage of delusion and attachment, faithful to your true self, your original Buddha nature, then you have no need to practice Zen. You are Zen, Zen is you, your entire life is the practice of Zen, and Zen is practicing you. You don't need to practice Zen, because you are practicing Zen, even when there is no longer any "Zen" to practice because you've dropped that also.

My posts end with "Gassho", if a dog could write his would probably end with "woof". Means the same thing. :mrgreen:

[will]

Re: REMINDER FROM JUNDO: THE (NON)NEED FOR SITTING ZAZEN

Seriously, I don't think anyone really needs to study or practice Zen. However, like Jundo said that's why we practice it. My small self centered Zen practice opens when it does. "My" dogs (who are not my dogs), don't practice Zen. They sleep, run, sniff, and watch. Though, as Suzuki said "we are not dogs" (You figure that one out).

The breeze is blowing, samu, Zazen, samu, Zazen, action, peace, and so on. That's my beginners perspective.

Gassho

W