Self/No-Self

[Adam]

Re: Self/No-Self

Hello Cyril,
When I first started this practice, the idea of emptiness was the hardest to grasp. I was trying to intellectualize it too much, so I couldn't come close to what it really meant. Emptiness means (to me) to experience life without any judgements, prejudices, or expectations. I've had the emptiness discussion many times, and this is the only way that I can truly express what emptiness means. It is not living life empty of feeling or without any cares to what happens. It's just experiencing every moment as it is. Letting each moment pass over us and letting things be.

The self/no self topic is interesting too. We are not a constant self because we are always changing. We are not the same person we were 10 years or 10 minutes ago, but we make perceptions and ideas about who we are in order to survive day to day. It's not a question of if we exist because we do, but not the way that we believe we do.... :wink: .

I hope this helps and I hope that I'm not completely in left field about these concepts. Thanks for your post!

Gassho,

Adam

[Heisoku]

Re: Self/No-Self

Hi,
Perhaps you could clarify for me something about no-self that I may be misunderstanding or not.
For some time I have thought that no-self to be the same as emptiness.
When all notions and perceptions of a self are 'not-present' then is what is left or experienced 'emptiness'?

Now I have had moments of a kind of emptiness, where there has been no-self in terms of no judgemental preoccupations or sense of a ME (physically or mentally) and when the present just exists...no emotional stirrings nor desire for anything else. These situations/ moments were quite ordinary and their clarity was extraordinary, but they were nothing special ..just empty.

I don't cling to these experiences but they have been a reference of what I perceive as no-self / emptiness, particularly as recently my zazen seems to have extended further into my working day and things I do just happen 'right' and this have benefitted me both as a person and in my career. I don't want to ruin this flow by analysing it, but if you could offer a clarification about this no-self / emptiness thing I would be really interested to hear your insights.

Many thanks.

Gassho Nigel

[Rich]

Re: Self/No-Self

Sometimes when I am experiencing pain and suffering my thinking becomes crazy and I just cut it off, then it becomes clear what to do. This before thinking or non-thinking is no self, don't know, emptiness. Lex Hixon (current book club) said "There is nothing more than or other than pure attention, limitless awareness" Accepting this awareness, paying attention to the myriad phenomena of which your thinking is one of, is the function of your self which continues to manifest as the body-mind as long as you live. So just sitting, returning to this 'awareness' or 'moment ' again and again is the practice and the most important thing and the whole self/no self thing is not necessary to understand IMHO

/Rich

[Jundo]

Re: Self/No-Self

Hi,
Perhaps you could clarify for me something about no-self that I may be misunderstanding or not.
For some time I have thought that no-self to be the same as emptiness.
When all notions and perceptions of a self are 'not-present' then is what is left or experienced 'emptiness'?

Now I have had moments of a kind of emptiness, where there has been no-self in terms of no judgemental preoccupations or sense of a ME (physically or mentally) and when the present just exists...no emotional stirrings nor desire for anything else. These situations/ moments were quite ordinary and their clarity was extraordinary, but they were nothing special ..just empty.

I don't cling to these experiences but they have been a reference of what I perceive as no-self / emptiness, particularly as recently my zazen seems to have extended further into my working day and things I do just happen 'right' and this have benefitted me both as a person and in my career. I don't want to ruin this flow by analysing it, but if you could offer a clarification about this no-self / emptiness thing I would be really interested to hear your insights.

Many thanks.

Gassho Nigel

I believe it limiting to try to define "no self" as one thing or state, in much the same way that it would be misleading to define "the sea" as one thing ... for that is H2O, a place to sail, grave to sailors, a home to clams, an eco-system, the briny deep, the salty taste right on the tip of your own tongue, as well as just that water we dive into for a swim on a sunny day. Moreover, it is something covering the whole world, flowing here and there, and constantly changing. All are correct ways of describing faces of "the sea".

So it is with "self/no self" and emptiness ... which manifest in many different shades at various moments.

The basic premise is that the day to day sense of "self" (as "my separate self vs. the rest of the world") is clutching, attached, judgmental of life, resistant to "how thing are" vs. "how I would wish them to be". Soften that sense of "self" and let go of all its judgments ... and the process reverses. We become "at one" with life. Understanding this Truth of "self/other" and "no self"as the medicine for that "dis-ease" ... in the marrow of the bones, and then some ... is vital to this practice and, though sometimes expressed in varying ways, has been since Buddhism began.

We cannot live life without some sense of "self" and its judgments ... for otherwise, we would be as frozen as the rocks and trees, could not even choose to get out of bed in the morning. However, we can get to a point of "having judgments and dropping all judgments" at once, of having lightly held but passionate "goals and dreams" while also feeling "there is no place in need of going, nothing in need of attaining" all at once ... like two sides of a no sided coin.

I believe that is the most basic key to the Four Noble Truths ...

In a nutshell, Your “self” wishes this world to be X, yet this world is not X. The mental state that may result to the “self” from this disparity is Dukkha.
.
Shakyamuni Buddha gave many examples: sickness (when we do not wish to be sick), old age (when we long for youth), death (if we cling to life), loss of a loved one (as we cannot let go), violated expectations, the failure of happy moments to last (though we wish them to last). Even joyous moments — such as happiness and good news, treasure or pleasant times — can be a source of suffering if we cling to them, if we are attached to those things.

In ancient stories, Dukkha is often compared to a chariot’s or potter’s wheel that will not turn smoothly as it revolves. The opposite, Sukkha, is a wheel that spins smoothly and noiselessly, without resistance as it goes.

...

Our “dissatisfaction,” “disappointment,”‘ “unease” and “frustration” — Dukkha — arises as a state of mind, as our demands and wishes for how things “should be” or “if only would be for life to be content” differ from”the way things are.” Your “self” wishes this world to be X, yet this world is not X. That wide gap of “self” and “not self” is the source of Dukkha.
.
Our Practice closes the gap; not the least separation.

http://www.shambhalasun.com/sunspace/?p=15344
and
http://www.shambhalasun.com/sunspace/?p=15509

We dance with life ... whatever comes, the ups and downs, sickness, growing old, happy times and sad ...

And sometimes we can just lose ourself in the dance, completely fluid and welcoming of whatever comes ...

Thus, I can compare emptiness to a dance ... always changing ...

viewtopic.php?p=36135#p36135

How do we experience all this?

Shikantaza ... Just Sitting Zazen, allowing all judgments, demands, "what ifs" and "if only's" to drift from mind.

Gassho, Jundo

[Heisoku]

Re: Self/No-Self

Thank you Jundo and Rich,

I get a better sense now and see the limitations of my thinking!
Back to zazen.

Gassho Nigel

[Rich]

Re: Self/No-Self

Thank you Jundo and Rich,

I get a better sense now and see the limitations of my thinking!
Back to zazen.

Gassho Nigel

Actually your question helped me, so thank you.
/Rich

[Jundo]

Re: Self/No-Self

You question helped me ... and not me ... too.

Help goes all around!

Gassho, J

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Self/No-Self

I think of the idea of "self" kind of like a crowbar or a hatchet, both cause a violent separation. This emptiness of the heart suttra isn't some sort of vacuum or void of "stuff-lessness" I see it more like the instant in time right before the lightning flashes. Right before you do a thing. If the thing has yet to be done, there is void. If you are doing the thing, but it is not yet complete, there is void. If you are done the thing, waiting for the next thing to do, there is void. These ideas of "me" and the "self", of action, completing a task, doing something, void, emptiness, they are all perceptions. The mind perceives the difference between "you" and "me", but there is no difference really, so this difference, this "you", this "me" is all void...emptiness. However, there really is a "you" and a "me" in this practical world of samsara which we all must live in. So this void is really form. See? Self is an idea, it has no substance, no weight, displaces no mass, can't be found, seen, heard, smelled, tasted, etc. Sure, your body has weight and substance, but your body is your body, it isn't the "self". You can point to your body, your eyes see, people can hear the sound of air through vocal cords, smell your sweat and cologne, taste the salt in your sweat, etc. but none of that is this funky "self" thing. But there is still a "you" and a "me" that are independent of one another. I like rock music, you like country. I have brown hair, you are blond. Now here's the kicker, you can only define "me" BECAUSE there is a "you" to contrast me. Your mind can only see the difference, BECAUSE THERE IS A DIFFERENCE to be seen. In this way, we are also dependent on one another. However, we are all made of the same stuff, living on the same world in the same universe, eating food grown in the same soil, fed by the same rain, drinking the same water. In this way, we are all "One", too.

In the end, don't get too attached to "self", "you", "me", "it", "he", "she", "one", "many", etc. Just be, and be well. Be wholly, honestly, and completely what you are, when you are, how you are, being mindful and compassionate, and allowing all of this stuff to just fall away, until you can let your "self" be yourself.

Now, I'm off to sit and try to accomplish all of that, which I may or may not do (ok let's face it, way more than likely it'll be in the "not do" section), but I'm grateful either way to have been given the opportunity.

[Jronin]

Re: Self/No-Self

Just as each cell in my body can be said to be a separate biological organism, but each is part of an interdependant whole I call my body, each human being can be looked at as a separate organism, but is also a part of the whole organism that we call planet earth.

Unfortunately, the human race sometimes looks more like a cancerous disease on planet earth than an integral part of the whole organism, but I think the cause of that has a lot to do with our sense of being separate selves and all the greed, fear and hatred that comes from that very notion.

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Self/No-Self

Unfortunately, the human race sometimes looks more like a cancerous disease on planet earth than an integral part of the whole organism, but I think the cause of that has a lot to do with our sense of being separate selves and all the greed, fear and hatred that comes from that very notion.

This is one of the reasons that we practice. This is the proof positive that these ideas of a seperate "you" from "me" cause hardship and suffering in the world. Take Kashmir, constantly fought over by India and Pakistan. Mostly, it's mountains and not much else. But this idea of "India" and "Pakistan" each want it for them "selves". But, we as Buddhists know that this cannot be no matter what they do. The land is the land, belonging to itself, and to everyone, and to no one. Go to Kashmir and tell the mountains they are Indian or Pakistani. The mountains will not care, they will still be mountains. They will still be mountains long after "India" and "Pakistan" are memories whose borders exist only in history books. This seperation is us feeding our desires and listening to the delusions that our minds create in order to feel justified in continuing to feed them. It is the Second Noble Truth:

What is the Noble Truth of the Origin of Suffering?

It is craving which renews being and is accompanied by relish and lust, relishing this and that: in other words, craving for sensual desires, craving for being, craving for non-being. But whereon does this craving arise and flourish? Wherever there is what seems lovable and gratifying, thereon it arises and flourishes.

There is this Noble Truth of the Origin of Suffering:such was the vision, insight, wisdom, knowing and light that arose in me about things not heard before.

This Noble Truth must be penetrated to by abandoning the origin of suffering....

enetrated to by abandoning the origin of suffering: such was the vision, insight, wisdom, knowing and light that arose in me about things not heard before.

[Samyutta Nikaya LVI, 11]