Buddhists and their teachers

[disastermouse]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

Hi Scott,

I am just saying thank you because I agree with Hans. As simple as that. There is nothing clever, nothing special. To my taste the little game of posting is sometimes far too verbal, far too wordy or complicated. Most of the time I refrain from posting or boil it down to the very minimum. People generally post too quickly. This is something i would like to discuss with Jundo and invite people to wait.

This is the only real communication the Sangha has. It's not so much correspondence as it conversation - and conversation flows.

What's that? First thought, best thought? Exactly.

And if it doesn't really matter, why not tear the place down? Of course it matters. It matters more to some than to others, I suppose. The main reason it matters is that, practically speaking, it's not helpful to stay in a Sangha if a teacher dislikes you too much.

Chet

[Taigu]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

We can see what the misunderstanding and mishandling of first thought, best thought do here and there, what kind of traces it leaves on the web. As soon as we move our fingers on the keyboard and intend to write a post, we have left the realm of of first thought, best thought a long time ago...Most poeple here do very well, a few of you have this anger, agressivity, this tough edge with which Jundo is very patient.

To all, please, be humble. Humble. That's all.


Thank you


gassho

Taigu

[Jinyu]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

I didn't say anything in this thread, and won't add anything...
But I just want to deeply thank all of you guys!

Some very profound yet very simple/direct things are being said...
And that just helps me a lot these days!

Deep Gassho,
Luis/Jinyu

[Yellow Pine]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

Thank you Taigu...seems like you're really drilling down to the tightrope that Zen teachers must walk if they operate within the online forum context...a tough row to hoe.

American culture is predicated on continual grasping after consumer products. It seems to carry over very well into the online style of discourse....grasp, challenge, grasp, challenge, grasp, challenge.

Tom

[disastermouse]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

We can see what the misunderstanding and mishandling of first thought, best thought do here and there, what kind of traces it leaves on the web. As soon as we move our fingers on the keyboard and intend to write a post, we have left the realm of of first thought, best thought a long time ago...Most poeple here do very well, a few of you have this anger, agressivity, this tough edge with which Jundo is very patient.

To all, please, be humble. Humble. That's all.


Thank you


gassho

Taigu

Seeing as I'm not likely to change my basic personality or challenging nature and this bothers you so much - just ask me to leave?

I'd thought that Jundo had not just tolerated it, but actually appreciated some of it. If this is not the case, then I truly don't have any place here...which is why I've tried not to get too comfy.

I'm at peace with my flaws, finally - but I certainly don't expect others to be that way. If my input is not wanted, well - who wants to stay in a place where he's merely tolerated?

You keep saying 'some of you'. Address us directly - it's clearer that way.

Chet

[disastermouse]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

Thank you Taigu...seems like you're really drilling down to the tightrope that Zen teachers must walk if they operate within the online forum context...a tough row to hoe.

American culture is predicated on continual grasping after consumer products. It seems to carry over very well into the online style of discourse....grasp, challenge, grasp, challenge, grasp, challenge.

Tom

As opposed to some other ideal culture? I've got an idea - instead of expecting the culture to change (which is unlikely), maybe we should think of a way to address the problem. Hell, maybe we should really examine if that IS the problem.

[Taigu]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

Chet ,

You certainly have a place here. We have learned so much thanks to you and your insights. You don't have to agree with me or be appreciative of my limited understanding. I wanted to point at a direction, you seem not to be willing to listen. That's fine.

Take care


gassho


Taigu

[Jundo]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

Seeing as I'm not likely to change my basic personality or challenging nature and this bothers you so much - just ask me to leave?

I'd thought that Jundo had not just tolerated it, but actually appreciated some of it. If this is not the case, then I truly don't have any place here...which is why I've tried not to get too comfy.

I'm at peace with my flaws, finally - but I certainly don't expect others to be that way. If my input is not wanted, well - who wants to stay in a place where he's merely tolerated?

You keep saying 'some of you'. Address us directly - it's clearer that way.

Chet

Okay, since you said *address it directly" ... 8)

I'm happy you are here Chet.

Here is some cheap armchair psych-analysis: It feels like maybe you are going through one of your self-doubting periods (or, better said, self-doubting-self periods). I notice you tend to get a little in others faces a bit at such times. Am I assuming too much? We all get like that sometimes, some more than others (the outward bite is actually a self-defense mechanism). Am I right, or is it cheap psycho-analyzing at a distance?

It took me awhile, but I came to recognize in you that you are all marshmallow inside the sometimes gruff exterior. About that, I do not think I am wrong. You are a pussycat who shows his little pussycat claws sometimes. Meow (Tin Tin the cat in my lap as I write this).

What's more, even your "rough, challenging personality and nature" are not as rough and challenging as you think. Over on Brad`s blog, some of those guys would eat you for lunch. :wink:

Yes, where we can, we should speak our mind, say what we need to say ... but do so in a kind, gentle manner, I believe. This world is already so rough and ugly sometimes, why bring more roughness and harshness into it? Anything that needs to be said can be said kindly, I believe. There is no need to hold back one's ideas or comments, although the presentation can be sugar or acid. Where possible, less acid is best, I believe, for everyone. (I have a New York sarcastic personality that I barely keep in check ... and sometimes do not) :twisted:

I have spoken to you if I thought you were getting into a member's face. Feel free to get into my face or Taigu's face all you want. Taigu and I really don't care. Please don't mind if we wrestle back to try to wrest some of your views and perspectives from you (as Taigu has been trying to do).

So, glad you are here.

Gassho, J

[disastermouse]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

Chet ,

You certainly have a place here. We have learned so much thanks to you and your insights. You don't have to agree with me or be appreciative of my limited understanding. I wanted to point at a direction, you seem not to be willing to listen. That's fine.

Take care


gassho


Taigu

You are simply too subtle for me sometimes, Taigu - it gets buried in the general noise in my life.

In essense, I THINK you were saying, 'Stop being such a know-it-all - you've still got a long way to go.'. But I don't know that this is what you were originally trying to say...I'm starting to grok it more as you've responded.

I know I've got a long way to go - and in my response, it may seem like there was an implied, 'unlike me'. On the contrary, I was actually was speaking from personal experience. I see it because I did/do it.

There's very little depth in my practice these days..

Chet

[Taigu]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

Again, Chet, so glad you are here. And sorry for the cryptic style. I will do my best to improve.

Take care

gassho


Taigu

[scott]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

American culture is predicated on continual grasping after consumer products. It seems to carry over very well into the online style of discourse....grasp, challenge, grasp, challenge, grasp, challenge.

Tom

As opposed to some other ideal culture?

Strong support. Quiz: in which culture do people spend more on clothes: urban Japan or urban USA?

[AlanLa]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

I don't think it's Western consumerism as much as it is individualism. We tend to teach here a version of self-importance, that your voice/opinion matters, and this is fine. But it's not an absolute. This individualistic self-importance then runs into zen where it is all about studying the self, and I think the result sometimes is a sort of This is the way it is for ME, so that's the way it is! kind of attitude. Actually, as I typed that I realized I get this in my university classes sometimes. Students come for knowledge and then when it doesn't fit with their experience they argue knowledge they supposedly came to discover. But with zen, as it is a spiritual matter, and thus much deeper than most other matters, that attitude can be a bit toxic. In the East it is more about collectivism, and I think that makes for less rubbing up against people in difficult ways, not that it doesn't happen, just that the way it is handled is different, quieter.

[Stephanie]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

I think the readiness to trust one's own experience over pronouncements from authority figures, and to question what one is told, if that is indeed a "Western" tendency, is a strength, not a weakness. It seems to me that there are far more people in America and elsewhere who want to give up their freedom and just follow what someone else says is the truth or the right thing to do. It's easier that way. Look at all the gurus and spiritual figures in America, past and present, who have been able to govern every detail of their followers' lives. It's comforting, comfortable to have someone take over for you. Just relax and drink the Kool-Aid. I don't see how placing an inherent trust in authority figures--a trust given automatically, rather than earned the way it is in most relationships--could ever lead to wisdom.

And AlanLa, what kind of teacher would want students to simply swallow quietly everything that a teacher said or that they read in a textbook? Education isn't about storing up information, it's about learning how to think and analyze for oneself, to entertain different perspectives. Which requires, demands, the ability to question and challenge. Most of the classes I took and professors I studied under strongly encouraged us to question what we read or heard. It's important to learn to be open to other points of view, but being open and questioning things are not necessarily opposed.

Finally, personal style is aesthetic. One style is not inherently more truthful than another. Gentle or aggressive, rough or smooth, loud or quiet--it's all about what people relate to. I learn more from strong words than gentle ones. Others learn more from gentle words than strong ones. Our conditioning is what leads to our aesthetic preferences, one aesthetic preference is not more "right" than another. I might like weird angular modern art, you might like gentle flowing Expressionist colors, and we each might think that the other is "wrong" or "less cultured" or whathaveyou, but that's all just ego talking. Nothin' to do with truth, which can come packaged in any aesthetic.

Thank goodness Chet is here--he was the only one who was able to help me get out of the spiritual bog I was in, and I looked in a lot of places for help, virtual, physical, and otherwise. Direct honesty, an ability to tolerate the dark places of the mind, and time for me. No one else could offer these things. Other people had opinions about how I could forcibly alter myself so that my mind and self-presentation conformed better to social prescriptions, but no one else offered me the truth I hungered for. The truth that was often hard to hear, and that I often didn't like to hear, but was willing to hear no matter what. No matter whether it was packaged nicely or served with sugar or not.

I think if Chet became more of the person Taigu seems to think he should be, it would be a loss. The problem with authority is that Taigu's personal preference for a certain kind of style, and obvious personal discomfort with conflict, heated exchanges, and powerful words, could be taken as a prescription for what is fundamentally "right" or "more enlightened" by people who see him as an authority, rather than all it is, which is a personal preference.

As John Daido Loori would say: "Feh!"

[Dosho]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

Stephanie and Chet,

I honestly wish I had even the most basic understanding of what makes you both tick as I think I'd be better off for it. But for the life of me I just don't get it. NOT a criticism AT ALL...just an observation. If you honestly believe it works for you, more power to you. I'm just clueless.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Seishin the Elder]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

DearHearts,

I honestly wish I had even the most basic understanding of what makes you both tick as I think I'd be better off for it. But for the life of me I just don't get it. NOT a criticism AT ALL...just an observation. If you honestly believe it works for you, more power to you. I'm just clueless.

Ditto!

I very sincerely believe that everyone can be and is my teacher at some time and some place in this life. Sometimes I am able to listen with an unfettered mind, and at other times I only "hear" bits and snatches; and then there are times when I cannot hear anything for all the noise and drum banging. This has been my experience here. I do not regret this experience only the loudness of it from time to time.

Thank you to ALL my teachers,

Kyrill/Seishin