Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

[disastermouse]

Who among you have secret desires that Zen is really going to get you somewhere? Who among you is using zazen to SEEK something and what is that thing you are seeking? Do you think there is an answer or an angle or a perspective that destroys all unhappiness? An enlightened mind does not seek to destroy unhappiness! That whole drive IS unhappiness! You think that whatever you are seeking simply MUST be something other than just 'this', right? But what else could it be?

We hear 'Zen is useless' but (almost) no one really believes it. People get discouraged because they think they're supposed to get something.. A lot of times, we start aiming for enlightenment..then we lower our aim to patience, then to just less pain, less disatisfaction...then we get discouraged and abandon Zen.

IMHO

Chet

[Hans]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Hello Chet!

You raised some interesting topics in your last post. Though I do not have a direct answer for you, let me just say that I get catapulted back to the well known saying "there are no enlightenend people, just enlightened activities" everytime I'm running the risk of thinking too much about this whole "goal of the practice" business. Once you've verified for yourself (in whichever way), that A path is a true path (e.g. Shikantaza Zen), all you can do is just practice. "Just doing it" is all that remains. In an ever changing world, (IMHO) there is no limit to enlightened activity unfolding in previously unknown ways ever anew.

I personally think that the really tricky point is finding out for yourself what a true path might look like for you and then to stick with it....a bit like brushing your teeth. Should I ever have to explain why I keep doing Zazen, I could come up with a really long list of words and shallow phrases about being able to see thoughts arise without attaching to them...the calming effect...ecstatic experiences once every hundred years etc. But the true answer is that "I don't know" why I keep doing this.

Am I doing Zazen, or is Zazen doing me? A nice koan.

"Don't know" is a very good place to be indeed, as long as it jumps clear of knowing and not-knowing.



Sorry if this doesn't relate to your original post enough, but that's what popped into my mind when I read it.


Gassho,

Mongen

[disastermouse]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Getting discouraged is very valuable in our practice! It shows where there are mistaken ideas about what our way is.

IMHO.

Better to be discouraged than have kensho. Kensho is so hard to question. Then again, maybe they both push you on the path. But no one SEEKS discouragement and so many seek Kensho. Why is this?

Chet

[will]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Who among you have secret desires that Zen is really going to get you somewhere? Who among you is using Zazen to SEEK something and what is that thing you are seeking?

I used to, but life's short. You know?

Probably something that is frequent, but it comes and goes away. Might come back :shock:

I was seeking enlightenment of course. Secret agendas hidden away in a box

But, today it's about the rain. This moment.

Gassho

W

[disastermouse]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

At this point, I don't really expect anything to magically happen.

For the historical figure generally referred to as the Buddha, he had a nagging inward struggle that his practice eventually helped him untangle in a more or less spectacular way. My own practice does help untangle nagging struggles, and I feel that's a natural by-product of practice.

But practicing zazen every day expecting to "become enlightened" is about like practicing a martial art every day expecting to turn into a nuclear bomb.

I think you've missed the point completely. Sitting zazen everyday expecting to 'become enlightened' is to not realize the reality of your actual experience.

Enlightenment is NOT something so absurd as a martial artist expecting to become a nuclear bomb. It IS spectacular, but it's not absurd.

IMHO.

Chet

[disastermouse]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

While it wouldn't be the first time I've missed a point completely, I'm not sure that such a conclusion may be derived from my previous post.

When I sit, I am enlightened, and when I practice taekwondo, I am a nuclear bomb. But neither of those assertions makes any sense if interpreted in certain (perfectly reasonable) ways.

Actually, your first statement makes PERFECT sense if interpreted reasonably. The second statement is just nonsense. To compare the two statements seems...

Like something someone would say if he was lost in the dark and fumbling to make sense of it.

Chet

[disastermouse]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

While it wouldn't be the first time I've missed a point completely, I'm not sure that such a conclusion may be derived from my previous post.

When I sit, I am enlightened, and when I practice taekwondo, I am a nuclear bomb. But neither of those assertions makes any sense if interpreted in certain (perfectly reasonable) ways.

Actually, your first statement makes PERFECT sense if interpreted reasonably. The second statement is just nonsense. To compare the two statements seems...

Like something someone would say if he was lost in the dark and fumbling to make sense of it.

Chet

My first two statements were really intended to be taken along with the third statement. It does seem safe to say that we've missed one another at this point.

How can we really possible miss one another?

Perhaps our statements seem at odds - but you are right - sitting together, everything really is already enlightened and there already is harmony.

Gassho

Chet

[Shugen]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

I started zazen to cope with stress. I got a little taste of something during sitting, which led to curiosity and a desire for more. Now, I don't know why I sit - it's just become what I do. Deep down, I'm probably still looking for something - I'm just not sure what that is anymore.

Ron

[Jundo]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Who among you have secret desires that Zen is really going to get you somewhere? Who among you is using zazen to SEEK something and what is that thing you are seeking? Do you think there is an answer or an angle or a perspective that destroys all unhappiness? An enlightened mind does not seek to destroy unhappiness! That whole drive IS unhappiness! You think that whatever you are seeking simply MUST be something other than just 'this', right? But what else could it be?

At this point, I don't really expect anything to magically happen.

Hi,

I am not sure that -I- get the point of some of the above posts ... but let me get on my soapbox and makes some things clear:

Who said that there is "nothing to find" in and through this practice, no place to get, no treasure at the end of the rainbow?

Not me. I never would say such a silly thing. Then why pursue this path?

Who said there is no "enlightenment" to be achieved? I never would say that. It would not be Buddhism in that case.

What's more, this practice lets us be happy, joyful. Who said not? Not me.

Ya really got to pay attention to what is being said. You see:

Just because we are not seeking does not mean we are not seeking ... nor that there aren't magical marvels thus to find! Enlightenment!

To the marrow sitting free of seeking ... is a dandy way thus to find something which can only be found by sitting radically free of seeking. Realizing that there is no where to get to, and no place you can get ... is finally getting somewhere that will revolutionize our life.

Being the "Buddha" all along, and having not a thing about you that is in need of change ... that does not mean you don't have some work to do to realize truly that you are the Buddha without need of change. To realize that you are never, from the outset, in need of change is a VERY BIG CHANGE! There is absolutely nothing about you and the universe (not two) to add or take away, and tasting that there is "nothing to add" is an irreplaceably important addition!

By being "goalless" we hit the goal ... a goal which is hit by being thoroughly goalless.

In seeing the ordinary as sacred ... we find (as Hakuin Zenji wrote) "this earth where we stand is the Pure Lotus Land, and this very body the body of Buddha".

Yes, the key is "not me" ... because that "me" is a trouble maker of frictions with the "not me" world. But depriving the "me" of its fuel, dropping body-mind, the friction vanishes. The way to "drop body-mind" is to drop all thought of achievement of "dropping body-mind" and all other need for achievement ... which results in a very major achievement, namely, the "dropping of body-mind."

And, yes, finally ... this practice makes me happy, joyful, deep down and pervading. It is an abiding happiness and joy at a life in which I do not need to, and will not, feel happy and joyful all or much of the time. And that makes me happy!

See how that all works?

For more details on this wacky, crazy, Koany, Zenny way of inside out, Alice through the looking glassness ... I repost the following ...

Hi,

Well, let me say what I always say ... and this is the BRILLIANCE, I assure all, of our path of "Non-attaining" ...

HEED CLOSELY THE FOLLOWING!

"Shikantaza" Zen practice is a radical, to the marrow, dropping of the self's demands that something needs to be attained to make this world "right", that something must be added or removed from our lives to make life complete, that something is defective and needs to be changed., that we need to get some place to find our "True Home".

HOWEVER, radically dropping, to the marrow all need to attain, add or remove, or change in order to make life right and complete --IS-- A WONDROUS ATTAINMENT, ADDITION and CHANGE TO LIFE! Dropping all need to "get somewhere" is truly finally GETTING SOMEWHERE! The True Home is here and everywhere! Abandoning all need in life's race to cross some finish line over a distant hill, is simply arriving at the finish line which is our every step!

GOT HOW THAT WORKS? :shock:

All of that is dropped from mind ... with other related stuff like thoughts of this and that, self and other ... and, in doing so, the body-mind of self (being out of a job) drops away too!

JUNDO SPECIAL NOTE I: But this must NOT be understood merely intellectually, and instead actually made the living practice of our life ... thus, all that Zazen! Chasing that which cannot be chased, attaining that which need not and cannot be attained.

As Chet says rightly ... Zen is not a "self help tool". It will not let you avoid growing old, cure your cancer, repair your broken marriage, or even fix your flat tire. It will not add one thing to your life, nor make any improvement in it whatsoever.

And realizing that is instantly a solution to all your problems ... because they are not problems when you do not resist them as problems, and when all separation of "me" from "them" drops away.

etc. etc. etc.


Gassho, Jundo

PS - JUNDO SPECIAL NOTE - Accepting the world as "just the way it is" does not mean we need sit on our backsides. Remember, please, "acceptance without acceptance". We can accept the cancer,yet take our medicine. Be wholly "at one" with a flat tire, yet change it. Just because you are now "at one" with your alcoholic, cigarette smoking, morbidly obese, fighting and cussing ways ... does not mean your should not live a more healthful way, and quit all that. You can accept your condition ... but you had best not accept your condition.

[disastermouse]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Who among you have secret desires that Zen is really going to get you somewhere? Who among you is using zazen to SEEK something and what is that thing you are seeking? Do you think there is an answer or an angle or a perspective that destroys all unhappiness? An enlightened mind does not seek to destroy unhappiness! That whole drive IS unhappiness! You think that whatever you are seeking simply MUST be something other than just 'this', right? But what else could it be?

At this point, I don't really expect anything to magically happen.

Hi,

I am not sure that -I- get the point of some of the above posts ... but let me get on my soapbox and makes some things clear:

Who said that there is "nothing to find" in and through this practice, no place to get, no treasure at the end of the rainbow?

Not me. I never would say such a silly thing. Then why pursue this path?

Who said there is no "enlightenment" to be achieved? I never would say that. It would not be Buddhism in that case.

What's more, this practice lets us be happy, joyful. Who said not? Not me.

Ya really got to pay attention to what is being said. You see:

Just because we are not seeking does not mean we are not seeking ... nor that there aren't magical marvels thus to find! Enlightenment!

To the marrow sitting free of seeking ... is a dandy way thus to find something which can only be found by sitting radically free of seeking. Realizing that there is no where to get to, and no place you can get ... is finally getting somewhere that will revolutionize our life.

Being the "Buddha" all along, and having not a thing about you that is in need of change ... that does not mean you don't have some work to do to realize truly that you are the Buddha without need of change. To realize that you are never, from the outset, in need of change is a VERY BIG CHANGE! There is absolutely nothing about you and the universe (not two) to add or take away, and tasting that there is "nothing to add" is an irreplaceably important addition!

By being "goalless" we hit the goal ... a goal which is hit by being thoroughly goalless.

In seeing the ordinary as sacred ... we find (as Hakuin Zenji wrote) "this earth where we stand is the Pure Lotus Land, and this very body the body of Buddha".

Yes, the key is "not me" ... because that "me" is a trouble maker of frictions with the "not me" world. But depriving the "me" of its fuel, dropping body-mind, the friction vanishes. The way to "drop body-mind" is to drop all thought of achievement of "dropping body-mind" and all other need for achievement ... which results in a very major achievement, namely, the "dropping of body-mind."

And, yes, finally ... this practice makes me happy, joyful, deep down and pervading. It is an abiding happiness and joy at a life in which I do not need to, and will not, feel happy and joyful all or much of the time. And that makes me happy!

See how that all works?

For more details on this wacky, crazy, Koany, Zenny way of inside out, Alice through the looking glassness ... I repost the following ...

Hi,

Well, let me say what I always say ... and this is the BRILLIANCE, I assure all, of our path of "Non-attaining" ...

HEED CLOSELY THE FOLLOWING!

"Shikantaza" Zen practice is a radical, to the marrow, dropping of the self's demands that something needs to be attained to make this world "right", that something must be added or removed from our lives to make life complete, that something is defective and needs to be changed., that we need to get some place to find our "True Home".

HOWEVER, radically dropping, to the marrow all need to attain, add or remove, or change in order to make life right and complete --IS-- A WONDROUS ATTAINMENT, ADDITION and CHANGE TO LIFE! Dropping all need to "get somewhere" is truly finally GETTING SOMEWHERE! The True Home is here and everywhere! Abandoning all need in life's race to cross some finish line over a distant hill, is simply arriving at the finish line which is our every step!

GOT HOW THAT WORKS? :shock:

All of that is dropped from mind ... with other related stuff like thoughts of this and that, self and other ... and, in doing so, the body-mind of self (being out of a job) drops away too!

JUNDO SPECIAL NOTE I: But this must NOT be understood merely intellectually, and instead actually made the living practice of our life ... thus, all that Zazen! Chasing that which cannot be chased, attaining that which need not and cannot be attained.

As Chet says rightly ... Zen is not a "self help tool". It will not let you avoid growing old, cure your cancer, repair your broken marriage, or even fix your flat tire. It will not add one thing to your life, nor make any improvement in it whatsoever.

And realizing that is instantly a solution to all your problems ... because they are not problems when you do not resist them as problems, and when all separation of "me" from "them" drops away.

etc. etc. etc.


Gassho, Jundo

PS - JUNDO SPECIAL NOTE - Accepting the world as "just the way it is" does not mean we need sit on our backsides. Remember, please, "acceptance without acceptance". We can accept the cancer,yet take our medicine. Be wholly "at one" with a flat tire, yet change it. Just because you are now "at one" with your alcoholic, cigarette smoking, morbidly obese, fighting and cussing ways ... does not mean your should not live a more healthful way, and quit all that. You can accept your condition ... but you had best not accept your condition.

Right, Jundo - I just hear people talk about getting disappointed..

Disappointed with what? Enlightenment is not resignation, no. A thousand times no.

What I'm saying is - YOU'RE SOAKING IN THE TREASURE. It's right here!

I was talking with a friend, and she's still thinking there's something else - and that's all wrong. She wants Kensho even though this IS Kensho. But then I meet people who think that Zen is this plodding, passive, blase, dead thing. And that's all wrong too. The first seeks what is already there but rejects it in favor of some fantastical idea of what it should be - the second view is shockingly lacking in motivation or curiosity - far too complacent and also doesn't pierce to the essence of what reality is.

IMHO.

Chet

[Jundo]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

What I'm saying is - YOU'RE SOAKING IN THE TREASURE. It's right here!

Yes.

Gassho, Jundo

Ps-

I was talking with a friend, and she's still thinking there's something else - and that's all wrong. ...

Well, realizing truly that it is all "right here" really is "something else", not our ordinary way of experiencing life. Some people need to look very hard to find that, and that is fine. Some flavors of Kensho may help some folks to realize that "all is soaking in the treasure". Different folks need to find this "treasure ever present" in different ways. The only problem is when folks keep looking for the "something else" without ever arriving at the "it's right here". I believe.

[Tb]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

What I'm saying is - YOU'RE SOAKING IN THE TREASURE. It's right here!

Yes.

Gassho, Jundo

Ps-

I was talking with a friend, and she's still thinking there's something else - and that's all wrong. ...

Well, realizing truly that it is all "right here" really is "something else", not our ordinary way of experiencing life. Some people need to look very hard to find that, and that is fine. Some flavors of Kensho may help some folks to realize that "all is soaking in the treasure". Different folks need to find this "treasure ever present" in different ways. The only problem is when folks keep looking for the "something else" without ever arriving at the "it's right here". I believe.

Hi.

I always had a problem with saying its "right here".
Can there be a "right here" without an "left there"?

Do you have an suggestion of an "better wording"?

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[AlanLa]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Fugen wrote:
I always had a problem with saying its "right here".
Can there be a "right here" without an "left there"?

But when it's all "right here," there is no "left there" left over. When it's all one, there is no need for two; one beyond one leaves no room or place for two. Fugen caught by dualism? I must be dreaming :wink:

I was really going to post something else, but then I saw Fugen's post and had to respond,,, and now I realize that what I was going to say is completely pointless. So, never mind.

[will]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

It's important that we keep practicing.

Gassho

[will]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Here's what I've learned so far up to now:

What the heck is enlightenment?!

This is what it's come to. I've had moments of great intimacy, smells and sounds etc.. Is that it? I've also have moments, like now, of clarity. I know that things, or habits, are changing. Whether I have "anything" to do with that, I don't know. There you go. Time to sit again.

W