Question about Eiheiji Temple

[Gerbovaz]

Re: Question about Eiheiji Temple

Kyosaku (kyousaku?) is used at the Atlanta zendo and in the same manner as well. It is helpful when the shoulders are tight.


Sylvia

[Tb]

Re: Question about Eiheiji Temple

Hi.

As long as they don't hit you with the shiketsu, it's all good.
I've seen both spellings, but i leave it up to the masters to clear out the spelling...

Mtfbwy
Tb

[Jundo]

Re: Question about Eiheiji Temple

Hi.

As long as they don't hit you with the shiketsu, it's all good.
I've seen both spellings, but i leave it up to the masters to clear out the spelling...

Mtfbwy
Tb

OH YES! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

For those who do not know, "shiketsu" is the "shit stick", formally used in Zen temples of centuries past to clean the butt in place of toilet tissue. It is most famous for its appearance in this Koan ...

Momonkan Case 21 Unmon's "Kanshiketsu" ????????
???????????????????

A monk asked Unmon, "What is Buddha?" Unmon replied, "Kanshiketsu!" [A dry shit-stick.]

Yes!

Listen, for those folks new here ... and connecting with another thread today in which Fugen made an appearance ... let me say again what an invaluable service Fugen has performed around here for the last couple of years. He is the fellow who, usually out of great wisdom and compassion, tosses a bucket of water or a pie in the face on all of us when we get too serious or caught up in words. THANK YOU FUGEN!

At first, I thought he was just joking around ... but, after a couple of months, I realized how much we often need that bucket of water, and thus need and depend on him around here. The above is a perfect example. Often the jester can convey more truth than all the King's messengers with their serious opinions and advice. Fugen is, in fact, our living Kyosaku stick!

As to the Kyosaku (the Rinzai folks call it the "Keisaku") ... I am not completely against it either. Often, when I visit Sojiji or another Sangha, I ask to receive a swipe on the shoulders. I have often been asked to carry and administer the Kyosaku when sitting retreats at other Sangha, and I have done so with Bodhisattva spirit and happily ... except for the couple of times I missed and accidentely clipped someone's ear.

Why does my lineage not use it? Nishijima and others in the lineage (not sure this applies to all teachers in the lineage) are not into the superficial violence of the thing (it is like spanking your child ... yes, it is done with love and the noise is worse than the pain itself, but still ...) , not into the sudden slapping noise during the middle of Zazen. There are other ways to wake someone up or the like during Zazen. In Rinzai Zen (as was discussed on another thread from a few days ago show ... and with many exceptions), generally more punching and yelling and kicking than in Soto practice. I have been beaten semi-silly with a Keisaku during a Rinzai sitting in Japan.

Anyway, I go either way on the issue. At the Maezumi lineage group where I teach, it is used for "Special" times (like retreats), and used pretty gently. At Soji-ji, where I sat for about 10 years before I was ordained, it was used at the Start of EVERY sitting for everybody in the room, then upon request.

If you want, I could work up a machine where, with a click of the mouse, I can Kyosaku folks over the internet. Or, doing our retreats, people can Kyosaku themselves! :-)

Gassho, Jundo

ADDENDUM: I once found this, in which Nishijima Roshi once spoke about the subject during a radio interview ...

While on the subject of Zazen practice I would like to say something about the use of the kyosaku, the
wooden stick used by some people to strike participants on the shoulders during practice to stop them
dozing off. I once watched a documentary on the TV about new company employees straight out of school
who were sent to a Zazen retreat as part of their induction course. During the retreat, someone was using
the kyosaku while they practiced. Later in the program, one of the participants was telling of his
experiences on the retreat, and he said that he never wants to join a retreat again because of the indignity of
receiving the kyosaku. I think that teaching people Zazen in this way is utterly wrong. Although the
kyosaku is much used in Zazen practice today, I never use it. My reason is that Master Dogen never once
mentioned the use of the kyosaku in any of his writings. He was meticulous in his descriptions of all the
Buddhist customs and traditions. If he had approved of its use, he would have written about it, describing in
detail its form and the way it is used. There is no such description in any of his works. This convinces me
that the kyosaku was not used at all in his time. It is likely that people started to use it at a much later
date.
Another reason against using the kyosaku is that it disturbs our practice. It is essential that we
individually take responsibility for our own posture during Zazen as far as possible. Practice in which an
authority figure makes us do it has little value. We must make ourselves practice. It is up to us to make
sure that we are sitting straight. To use the kyosaku to wake practitioners up so that they will not
embarrass themselves before the others is not useful.

[disastermouse]

Re: Question about Eiheiji Temple

LOL! This is what happens when Zen is left to the Japanese.

I'm surprised it's lasted as long as it has. The Dharma is not a means by which to terrorize people. I shudder to think of the karma these idiots have incurred.

Chet

[Taigu]

Re: Question about Eiheiji Temple

Indeed, Padre. I usually ask for it when I visit groups or temples. Nevertheless, I have met a very offensive and abusive use ot it called rensaku that I disagree with. Generally, japanese kyosaku is light and more noisy than painful, but the oak kyosaku used by Deshimaru and his disciples is another ball game altogether...very effective in balancing your body-mind for a few minutes, and painful too.

Gassho

Taigu

[disastermouse]

Re: Question about Eiheiji Temple

I shudder to think of the karma these idiots have incurred.

Well, for one thing, it's led to this shuddering problem of yours. :twisted:

An appropriate response is hardly a 'problem'.

Don't make me ask Will to come onto this thread to explain how there are no problems. /kidding

Chet

[will]

Re: Question about Eiheiji Temple

Too late. I'm already here.

Huh?
What?
What's going on?

A problem? Uh oh. Oh no!

W

[disastermouse]

Re: Question about Eiheiji Temple

Too late. I'm already here.

Huh?
What?
What's going on?

A problem? Uh oh. Oh no!

W

LOL!

Chet

[Jinho]

Re: Question about Eiheiji Temple

Here locally, the kyosaku stick is used (on some days of longer practice), but only when requested. And it is administered in a manner that really does seem to help out with relatively intense physical discomfort and mental fatigue.

It looks and sounds ungodly cruel from a third person perspective, but the tradition is carried forward here in a real spirit of generosity and kindness.

So even some of the forms associated with harsh discipline seem to transform when executed skillfully and thoughtfully.

Hi,

Um, I think I am the only one here who has ever been hit with a kyosaku. Again, it does not hurt. It could not be used as physical abuse because it is so big you would really seriously damage someone (as in put them in the hospital).

Zen teachers traditionally have LITTLE sticks (maybe 12 to 14 inches long), also fly whisks (not vegetarian since the whisk part is horse hair). This is what they were going around hitting people with. NOT a 4 foot long solid wood bat.

cheers,
rowan

[Jundo]

Re: Question about Eiheiji Temple

For those who have never seen, here is a film of Deshimaru Roshi administering the Kyosaku ... the sound is rather stronger than the actual sensation ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzvDy6--oCM[/video]]

[Taigu]

Re: Question about Eiheiji Temple

Hi Padre,

This kyosaku is nothing special. You will find similar ones in most temples of Japan. I was involved with Deshimaru sangha for about 20 years. My experience of this lineage is much like everything else, I did meet great people, full of understanding and compassion but also a few control freaks with martial and military attitudes. You are lucky to have a group to sit with. The thing that kind of worries more than anything else is the rigidity, the stiffness and the stress put on out-breath. Zazen experienced like a competition with strong macho style sometimes. So far away from what shikantaza is. But there again it varies from poeple to people.

Take care

gashho


taigu

[frjames]

Re: Question about Eiheiji Temple

Hello all,

I'm new here.

My first experience of zazen was with Matsuoka-Roshi. I walked into his temple and ask to be taught how to sit. He welcomed me, pointed me to gasho at the altar of the Buddha, offered incense, pointed me to the cushion and I sat for forty minutes followed by kinhin. Another sitting for 40 minutes and it was then that I was administered the Kyosaku. Whack! It wasn't the only time. I came to respect the Kyosaku for I think somehow the one who administers it must know the exact timing and the right spot to administer it to awaken the receiver.

That was twenty years ago and Rev. Matsuoka has passed on. His lineage is maintained at the Atlanta Soto Zen Center where the Abbot there has written a book on Matsuoka's teachings. The title of the book: The Kyosaku. http://www.aszc.org

A profound bow to all,

Fr. James

[will]

Re: Question about Eiheiji Temple

I have never been touch so lightly and gently, or spoken to with such care, as when the monk at Sojiji adjusted my position before applying the Kyosaku (spoken in Japanese by the way, which I don't speak). Not two. This is also mirrored in posture adjustment in some places.

I don't know about everyone else, but I had to ask for it.

Sometimes it sounds like there's a crazy Samurai wailing on the Sitters (Eiheiji and Ru jing aside). Hopefully their practice has taught them that such things are handled with great care. Just like handling and folding the Kesa.

Common sense says not to hit someone too hard, otherwise you could end up causing serious damage. I have yet to come across it, but if that happens to you here's here's a comic:

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/7166 ... gesli1.jpg

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/1086/c ... nd4ue0.jpg

Gassho

W

[Shohei]

Re: Question about Eiheiji Temple

thanks for the comic Will!!

Gassho Shohei

[Hoyu]

Re: Question about Eiheiji Temple

Jundo wrote:
A trickle of water and easy wind can pierce a stone wall, as can dynamite. But the latter often ends up making a broken mess of things, and pieces hard to put back together.

Beautiful! _/_