The Contradiction of the 1st and 3rd noble truth (truth of suffering and cessation)

[Douglas]

Hello everyone,

I've been contemplating the First and Third Noble Truths and would like to delve deeper into their meanings. They appear to present a contradiction—at least on the surface. The First Noble Truth acknowledges that suffering is an inherent part of life, while the Third Noble Truth suggests that there is a path to the cessation of suffering.

Could anyone offer insights or expand on this seeming paradox? How can we reconcile the idea that suffering is inescapable with the possibility of its end? I'm particularly interested in any teachings or interpretations from Dogen or other Zen masters on this topic.

Thank you in advance for your thoughts.

- Sat today

Edit: Meant Contradiction in the subject

[Kokuu]

Hi Douglas

The Four Noble Truths are often explained as following a formula used in Indian medicine, presenting a condition (first NT), its cause (second NT), whether there is a cure (third NT), and what that cure is (fourth NT).

So, as I understand it myself, what the Buddha is doing here is talking about a condition experienced by most human beings - suffering. At that time were there any beings other than the Buddha who no longer experienced suffering? Maybe, I don't know. But, as a generalisation I think the first NT still holds pretty well, even if it excludes enligntened beings who have been freed from suffering.

If you want to read where this teaching is first laid out as the Buddha's first sermon (although I would bet that it has been edited since his actual words) you can find it as the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipi....011.than.html. What I find interesting, and was first brought to my attention by the Tibetan teacher Geshe Tashi Tsering, is that each truth comes with a course of action related to it:

This noble truth of stress [suffering] is to be comprehended
This noble truth of the origination of stress is to be abandoned
This noble truth of the cessation of stress is to be directly experienced
This noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress is to be developed


Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

ps. I corrected the thread title for you!

[Shinshi]

Let's grab the Four Noble Truths from Wikipedia:

Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering.

Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the origin of suffering: it is this craving [taṇhā, "thirst"] which leads to re-becoming, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for becoming, craving for disbecoming.

Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering: it is the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, non-reliance on it.

Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering: it is this noble eightfold path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.



So, to me, there are things that we do that naturally lead to suffering. These are things the humans have an inclination to do do. And, often we do these things we think they will lead to less suffering. But we are wrong. We have experiences and the way we respond to these experiences leads to suffering. A natural consequence to our actions.

Second noble truth shows us that it is the craving/attachment to something other than our experience that leads to suffering.

Which means there is a way to not go down the path to suffering.

And that way is the eightfold path.

I am sure others will be along to explain it better. But that is my understanding at this point in time.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Houzan]

The Contradiction of the 1st and 3rd noble truth (truth of suffering and cessation)

Hello everyone,

I've been contemplating the First and Third Noble Truths and would like to delve deeper into their meanings. They appear to present a contradiction—at least on the surface. The First Noble Truth acknowledges that suffering is an inherent part of life, while the Third Noble Truth suggests that there is a path to the cessation of suffering.

Could anyone offer insights or expand on this seeming paradox? How can we reconcile the idea that suffering is inescapable with the possibility of its end? I'm particularly interested in any teachings or interpretations from Dogen or other Zen masters on this topic.

Thank you in advance for your thoughts.

- Sat today

Edit: Meant Contradiction in the subject

Delusion is suffering and suffering is delusion.
Therefore, if you can solve it, it’s not a problem. If you can’t solve it, it’s not a problem.
It is not about changing life, but living life.
Truly living life in the midst of delusion.
This is my current understanding of the third noble truth, and therefore no contradiction.

I found Nishijima’s interpretation of the four noble truths as a great complementary perspective. He picked up on the same contradiction.

Gassho, Hōzan
Satlah

[Zenkon]

Douglas

Reading your OP, two statements you make may be causing your sense of a contradiction. First, you say "... suffering is an inherent part of life...". The word "inherent" seems to imply fixed or permanent, unchangeable. I don't believe this would be the correct understanding. I think "pervasive" might be a better view. Second, you say "...How can we reconcile the idea that suffering is inescapable with the possibility of its end?..." I don't think the idea that "...suffering is inescapable"... is the correct way of understanding. Suffering IS escapable and the Noble Eightfold Path is the way! With these two changes, suffering is seen as pervasive and present everywhere, but impermanent, empty and avoidable. Hope this helps.

Gassho

ZenKon
sat/lah

[Kokuu]

Reading your OP, two statements you make may be causing your sense of a contradiction. First, you say "... suffering is an inherent part of life...". The word "inherent" seems to imply fixed or permanent, unchangeable. I don't believe this would be the correct understanding. I think "pervasive" might be a better view

I like that, Zenkon. Pervasive is a good word!

[Jundo]

Hi Guys,

I don't see the contradiction.

Dukkha is inherent in samsara, this world of me and you, this and that, which sometimes conflict or disappoint. I define Dukkha this way ...

No one English word captures the full depth and range of the Pali term, Dukkha. It is sometimes rendered as “suffering,” as in “life is suffering.” But perhaps it’s better expressed as “dissatisfaction,” “anxiety,” “disappointment,” “unease at perfection,” or “frustration” — terms that wonderfully convey a subtlety of meaning.

In a nutshell, your “self” wishes this world to be X, yet this world is not X. The mental state that may result to the “self” from this disparity is Dukkha.
.
Shakyamuni Buddha gave many examples: sickness (when we do not wish to be sick), old age (when we long for youth), death (if we cling to life), loss of a loved one (as we cannot let go), violated expectations, the failure of happy moments to last (though we wish them to last). Even joyous moments — such as happiness and good news, treasure or pleasant times — can be a source of suffering if we cling to them, if we are attached to those things.

Buddha-Basics 1

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7720-Buddha-Basics-%28Part-I%29-%C2%97-Scooby-Dooby-Dukkha

However, there is a cure for this Dukkha, namely, to realize this free of me and you, this and that, coming and going, birth and death.

It is not rocket science.

However, so long as we remain in these bodies and individual lives, we will be in a world of me and you, this and that, coming and going, birth and death, with frequent conflict and disappointment.

When we also realize the world free of all that separation, we are also free, thoroughly.

That may seem like a contradiction, but it is not.

Thus, there is me and you yet not, this and that yet not, coming and going yet no coming and going, birthless birth and deathless death, no conflict or friction whatsoever (not even a single drop) even as we live in a world of sometime conflict and friction that sometimes breaks our hearts.

Yes, not rocket science.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Jundo]

PS - One problem is that people confuse "Dukkha" with things like pain, death, loss and the ordinary English use of the word "suffering." They are not the same.

As I mention above, pain and death and loss are only "Dukkha" when we resist the happening of pain and death and loss. If one accepts and embraces and "flows along as" the pain and death and loss ... letting pain and death and loss just be pain and death and loss ... there is no Dukkha.

Going further, one can also see altogether beyond this world of pain and death and loss to a realm (like two sides of a no sided coin) where there is no pain and death and loss, realizing that this world of pain and death and lose is just the other face of the no faced coin.

The above is very confusing the many folks, and leads to their misunderstanding of a basic Buddhist insight and how to be free of Dukkha.

[Tom A.]

The Contradiction of the 1st and 3rd noble truth (truth of suffering and cessation)

PS - One problem is that people confuse "Dukkha" with things like pain, death, loss and the ordinary English use of the word "suffering." They are not the same.

As I mention above, pain and death and loss are only "Dukkha" when we resist the happening of pain and death and loss. If one accepts and embraces and "flows along as" the pain and death and loss ... letting pain and death and loss just be pain and death and loss ... there is no Dukkha.

Going further, one can also see altogether beyond this world of pain and death and loss to a realm (like two sides of a no sided coin) where there is no pain and death and loss, realizing that this world of pain and death and lose is just the other face of the no faced coin.

The above is very confusing the many folks, and leads to their misunderstanding of a basic Buddhist insight and how to be free of Dukkha.

It took me a long time to abandon the self-improvement mindset, the mindset that says I need to be someone other than myself (or even can be other than myself), a “normal” person. Of course there are things to do, but with the attitude of “fix-ceptance,” not insecurity. I’m here to say that “normal” isn’t very common (we all struggle, some with illness, some with just being a weird squiggly thing called human) and striving for it can be counter productive. I prefer to think of Buddhism as non-addiction and renunciation of harm rather than trying to become “normal” or something we are not.

Gassho,

Tom

SatLah


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Douglas]

These are all very good responses! I’m going through a rather rough time in my life (probably the most difficult to date) and I was trying reconcile what cessation of suffering would look like as opposed to not. I know this is dualistic, but my small mind has no other way of looking at it.

- sat today

[Guest]

I have always looked at it this way: There is dukkha (a state of unsatisfactoriness or we could also call it stress). The origin of this is wanting things we like, not wanting things we do not like, and attaching to the sense of an I, my, mine that holds those two together. The third noble truth is about opening our minds to dukkha and embrace it as the condition we find ourselves in (the human condition). The noble truths teach us to open to what is, and allow it to be as it is in the moment. We be with what is and realize that it too ceases or changes. That is how it ceases, rather than us pushing it away because we do not like it which then just leads to ore dukkha. We realize that as the Heart Sutra tells us that ultimately there is no suffering and no cause to suffering, BUT our experience of our human condition contains such things. So, we do our best to practice what Jundo calls 'fixceptance,' where we accept what is here and we mindfully move in a direction of changing that which we can change when it needs to be changed, but we do not attach to it, or its intended outcome and we do our best to always start at the place of acceptance before doing anything to bring about change.

Please take what I say here with a grain of salt. I am only a priest in training and perhaps I am totally off the mark here.

Gassho,
Daiman
ST/LAH

[Douglas]

Douglas

Reading your OP, two statements you make may be causing your sense of a contradiction. First, you say "... suffering is an inherent part of life...". The word "inherent" seems to imply fixed or permanent, unchangeable. I don't believe this would be the correct understanding. I think "pervasive" might be a better view. Second, you say "...How can we reconcile the idea that suffering is inescapable with the possibility of its end?..." I don't think the idea that "...suffering is inescapable"... is the correct way of understanding. Suffering IS escapable and the Noble Eightfold Path is the way! With these two changes, suffering is seen as pervasive and present everywhere, but impermanent, empty and avoidable. Hope this helps.

Gassho

ZenKon
sat/lah

Thank you! I find that helpful.

-Sat today

[Douglas]

Hi Guys,

I don't see the contradiction.

Dukkha is inherent in samsara, this world of me and you, this and that, which sometimes conflict or disappoint. I define Dukkha this way ...



However, there is a cure for this Dukkha, namely, to realize this free of me and you, this and that, coming and going, birth and death.

It is not rocket science.

However, so long as we remain in these bodies and individual lives, we will be in a world of me and you, this and that, coming and going, birth and death, with frequent conflict and disappointment.

When we also realize the world free of all that separation, we are also free, thoroughly.

That may seem like a contradiction, but it is not.

Thus, there is me and you yet not, this and that yet not, coming and going yet no coming and going, birthless birth and deathless death, no conflict or friction whatsoever (not even a single drop) even as we live in a world of sometime conflict and friction that sometimes breaks our hearts.

Yes, not rocket science.

Gassho, J

stlah

I agree. It’s not rocket science, but there is a difference (and here we go, being dualistic!) between intellectual understanding and understanding at a deep, non-conceptual level. Talking about Zen makes me feel like chasing one’s tail. The intellectual exercise of discussing it can’t truly take me to a deep, non-conceptual understanding since there isn’t a way to express non-conceptual insights with words. However, I do feel that conceptual thought and discussion can point out its own contradictions, which leads… somewhere.

My tendency is to over analyze things. During Zazen I end up thinking about thinking about thinking. I'm not saying this is bad, I usually catch myself and try to bring myself back to my breath but years of habit in regards to letting my thoughts run amok is a hard habit to break consistently. In regards to Suffering, there is the attachment to not suffer. We have some attachment, or we wouldn't sit zazen or attempt to be mindful during the day.

[Jundo]

During Zazen I end up thinking about thinking about thinking.

Yes, during Zazen, put aside the analysis. Then perhaps the meaning will become clear.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Shonin Risa Bear]

FWIW, we could consider it all this way. Shakyamuni, having seen the Four Sights, the first three of which were instances of sickness, old age and death, had an insight into entropy. So: 1. There is entropy. 2. We stress over it. 3. But there's no way out of it, so stop that. 4. Here's how: [eight point program]. The Fourth Sight, asceticism, struck him, after a fair trial, as just more entropy stress, hence the Middle Way, for which the eight point program is a practical guide.

Ran long.

gassho
ds sat this morning.