Ordained vs. Lay at TreeLeaf?

[Benjamin Gieseke]

Hello everyone,

Thank you for your patience if this has been answered elsewhere, I have searched quite a bit and haven't found a clear answer - I'm curious as to the difference between the Unsuis'/ordained folks' practice "regimen" vs. the more average TreeLeaf practitioner? Is there a different "minimum" expectation, routine, etc.?

I think the deeper question I am seeking to understand is the distinction between "lay" and ordained members of this community. I definitely discern the historic and concerted effort to blur or erase the lines between lay and monastic within TreeLeaf, which leads me to curiosity about the distinctions that remain.

I will likely have follow up questions, but let's start there for the moment! This is the most engaged in a spiritual community I have been since exiting the ordination path within the Lutheran church and I appreciate your thoughtfulness in helping me learn the nuances of the Zendo!

Gassho,
Benjamin
SatLah

[Shujin]

Hi Benjamin! Welcome to Treeleaf. I'm sure you'll receive a variety of answers here. Lay and ordained folks take the same precepts, and can help in the same ways regardless of title. For me, ordination is a vow to carry our practice and traditions in my own life, both in Treeleaf and the community where I live. Although we can say that our time on this earth is beyond life and death, if we don't care for things, they fade away. Ultimately, I don't have an end goal in mind. I'm new to this unsui business, so please take what I say with a bit of skepticism.

Gassho,
Shujin

st/lah

[Doshin]

I am new too and share Shujin’s perspective. I have much to learn. After 25 years as a zen student I will say since ordination my practice has become more work, but in a good way


Task wise there are many readings, sewing a Kesa and learning rituals. I am sure some of the old timers will provide more information.

We are all the same.

Doshin
Stlah

[Guest]

I'm relatively new to Treeleaf, I only received Lay precepts this January, and currently discerning whether ordination is the right path, so excuse my adding my thoughts.

I used to think "should I ordain?", at some point this changed to "am I the sort of person who should ordain?"

What I see from the Priests and Unsui that I've interacted with, is the sense of service, the willingness to take on more for the sake of the sangha, and to be available. The shift seems to be from the sense of 'my practice' to 'our practice'.

I'm willing to be corrected (i hope to be if I'm wrong), but it strikes me that ordination implies a calling to preserve, embody, and potentially transmit the traditions of the Buddha Dharma and Sangha, but that obligation aside the path seems the same, same precepts, same practice, but probably more expectation to study and learn for the Unsui.

Sattday
Gassho

Myojin

[Kokuu]

What I see from the Priests and Unsui that I've interacted with, is the sense of service, the willingness to take on more for the sake of the sangha, and to be available. The shift seems to be from the sense of 'my practice' to 'our practice'.

I think that Myojin has hit the nail on the head here. Some priests may sit more than lay members, some lay members may sit more than priests. And, yes, priests do undertake training in ceremony, and learn the history and teachings of Soto Zen in a deeper way than most lay folk (although not necessarily so). However, the big change once you put on the robe is that practice is about being in service to Treeleaf, our community, and the wider world. All that we do is part of that - the sitting, the dharma study, the ceremony practice - all enable us to better serve you and all sentient beings as and when they need us.

When I first came to Treeleaf, it was about interacting with the threads and activities that interested me, and that I could learn from, in the way I wanted. Now it is looking to see what needs doing, which threads need a response, and which members might need something either in response to an email, or to something they have written on the forum which needs addressing privately. And likewise, many of my interactions with the rest of the world are characterised by being of service, and trying to free all beings from suffering (there may also be the odd occasion of watching funny cat videos on YouTube ).

I think that the attitude is well summed up by this poem by Ryokan Taigu:

When I think
About the misery
Of those in this world
Their sadness
Becomes mine.

Oh, that my monk's robe
Were wide enough
To gather up all
The suffering people
In this floating world.


You do not have to be ordained to practice like that, and we have many lay members who live a life of service to the world. However, if you do ordain, that way of being is sewn into the Buddha's robe.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Jundo]

Hi Benjamin,

Very nice responses given. I will also post the following description which accompanies our sometime Shukke Tokudo Ordinations ...

~~~

From time to time, after undertaking Zen practice for many years, a person may feel in their heart a certain calling. They may wish to train in our traditions and embody our practices in order to keep this way alive into the next generation as clergy. They may feel a calling within themselves to live as a servant and minister to the community, to the Sangha and to all sentient beings.

Traditionally, in India, China, Japan and the other Buddhist countries of Asia, one was expected to leave one’s home and family behind in order to begin the necessary training and practice of an “apprentice”. Thus, the ancient ceremony of ordination in Buddhism became known as Shukke Tokudo, “Leaving Home to Take the Way”. Now, in modern Japan and in the West, one great change in the nature of Buddhist clergy has been that many of us function more as “ministers” than “monks,” with family and children, often with outside jobs as “Right Livelihood” supporting us, while ministering to a community of parishioners. This, in keeping with changes in cultures and society, has done much to bring Buddhism out from behind monastery walls. While now we may be living in a monastic setting for periods of weeks or months (and thus can be called “monks” during such times), we then return to the world beyond monastery walls, where these teachings have such relevance for helping people in this ordinary life. We are not bound by monastery walls, dropping all barriers separating "inside" from "out". Thus, the term “leaving home” has come to have a wider meaning, of “leaving behind” greed, anger, ignorance, the harmful emotions and attachments that fuel so much of this world, in order to find the “True Home” we all share. In such way, we find that Home that can never be left, take to the Way that cannot be taken.

Someone’s undertaking “Shukke Tokudo” is not a “raising up” of their position in the Sangha, it is not an honor or “promotion” into some exalted status, not by any meaning. Far from it, it is a lowering of oneself in offering to the community, much as all of us sometimes deeply bow upon the ground in humility, raising up others and the whole world above our humbled heads.

It is to volunteer and offer oneself as the lowest ‘sailor on the ship’ at the beck and call of the passengers' well-being and needs, a nurse to the suffering, a brother or sister supporting a family, a friend offering to help carry a burden. One must be committed sincerely to serve and benefit others, and one must not undertake such road for one’s own benefit, praise or reward.

What is more, the undertaking of “Shukke Tokudo” is not the end of the road of training, not by any meaning. Far from it, it is but the first baby steps. Perhaps, years down the road, the person will find that that they maintain the inner calling to continue this path … and, perhaps, years down the road, they shall have embodied this Tradition sufficiently to continue it and be certified as a fully Dharma Transmitted “priest” and a teacher … but there is no guaranty of any of that. Some will withdraw by their change in feelings, some will be asked to withdraw. For this reason, one undertaking “Home Leaving” is not yet recognized in the Zen world as truly a fully ordained “priest” for many years, and is called an “Unsui”, meaning “clouds and water,” representing the resolution yet malleability that is required in training. The best translation in English is “apprentice priest” or "novice priest" or “priest trainee.” Perhaps, years down the road, some trainees will be felt to have embodied these traditions sufficiently in order to function independently as priests and to receive Dharma Transmission … but not necessarily. For now, they are expected to learn … with the future not assured, and no promises about the future. (Of course, we are all beginners, all students … all learning from each other … teachers learning from students too).

We hope that, in the coming years, other people will feel this same calling. It must be by mutual decision. It is not something that should be rushed into, nor rushed through. Although people are all different, maybe a good time to first consider such a thing would be only after practicing for 5 years or longer, and then it should be deeply thought about (and silently sat with) for longer still before first taking on the responsibilities of being an apprentice student-priest.

~~~

You may also be interested, Benjamin, in this Obituary I wrote for my Teacher, Nishijima Roshi, and his wish to bring our fine Ways and Teachings out from behind monastery walls:

Eight Ways GUDO WAFU NISHIJIMA Will Help Change ZEN BUDDHISM

...

1 – STEPPING THROUGH THE TRADITIONAL FOURFOLD CATEGORIES OF PRIEST & LAY, MALE & FEMALE: Unlike most Buddhist clergy in Asia, Japanese priests typically marry and are not celibate. Some look at this as a great failing of Japanese Buddhism, a break from 25 centuries of tradition. In Japan and the West, even some Japanese lineage priests and lay teachers themselves are unsure of their own identity and legitimacy, and of their roles compared to each other. With great wisdom, Nishijima transcended all such questions and limiting categories. He advocated a way of stepping right through and beyond the whole matter, of finding living expressions where others saw restriction, and of preserving the tradition even as things change. While he was a champion of the celibate way (Nishijima Roshi, although married, turned to a celibate lifestyle for himself upon ordination), he never felt that celibacy was the only road for all priests. Nishijima advocated a form of ordination that fully steps beyond and drops away divisions of “Priest or Lay, Male or Female”, yet allows us to fully embody and actuate each and all as the situation requires. In our lineage, we are not ashamed of nor try to hide our sexuality and worldly relationships, nor do we feel conflicted that we are “monks” with kids and mortgages. When I am a parent to my children, I am 100% that and fully there for them. When I am a worker at my job, I am that and embody such a role with sincerity and dedication. And when I am asked to step into the role of hosting zazen, offering a dharma talk, practicing and embodying our history and teachings and passing them on to others, I fully carry out and embody 100% the role of “Priest” in that moment. Whatever the moment requires: maintaining a sangha community, bestowing the Precepts, working with others to help sentient beings. The names we call ourselves do not matter. In Nishijima’s way, we do not ask and are unconcerned with whether we are “Priest” or “Lay”, for we are neither that alone, while always thoroughly both; exclusively each in purest and unadulterated form, yet wholly all at once. It is just as, in the West, we have come to step beyond the hard divisions and discriminations between “male” and “female”, recognizing that each of us may embody all manner of qualities to varying degrees as the circumstances present, and that traditional “male” and “female” stereotypes are not so clear-cut as once held. So it is with the divisions of “Priest” and “Lay”.

2 – FINDING OUR PLACE OF PRACTICE AND TRAINING “OUT IN THE WORLD”: For thousands of years, it was nearly impossible to engage in dedicated Zen practice except in a monastic setting, to access fellow practitioners, teachers and teachings, to have the time and resources and economic means to pursue serious practice, except by abandoning one’s worldly life. By economic and practical necessity, a division of “Priest” and “Lay” was maintained because someone had to grow the food to place in the monks’ bowls, earn the wealth to build great temples, have children to keep the world going into the next generation. Although Mahayana figures like Vimalakirti stood for the principle that liberation is available to all, the practical situation was that only a householder with Vimalakirti’s wealth, leisure and resources might have a real chance to do so. Now, in modern societies with better distributions of wealth (compared to the past, although we still have a long way to go), ‘leisure’ time, literacy and education, media access and means of travel and communication across distances, many of the economic and practical barriers to practice and training have been removed. This is the age when we may begin to figuratively “knock down monastery walls”, to find that Buddha’s Truths may be practiced any place, without divisions of “inside” walls or “outside”. For some of us, the family kitchen, children’s nursery, office or factory where we work diligently and hard, the hospital bed, volunteer activity or town hall are all our “monastery” and place of training. We can come to recognize the “monastery” located in buildings made of wood and tile as in some ways an expedient means, although with their own power and beauty too. There are still times when each of us can benefit from periods of withdrawal and silence, be it a sesshin or ango, or the proverbial grass hut in distant hills. Yes, this Way still needs all manner of people, each pursuing the paths of practice suited to their needs and circumstances, be they temple priests catering to the needs of their parishioners, hermits isolated in caves, celibate monks in mountain monasteries, or “out in the world” types demonstrating that all can be found right in the city streets and busy highways of this modern world. Nishijima, a zen priest yet a working man, a husband and father most of his life, stood for a dropping of “inside” and “out”. He was someone that knew the value of times of retreat, but also the constant realization of these teachings in the home, workplace and soup kitchens.


https://web.archive.org/web/20160324...-zen-buddhism/

Pardon the long post.

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

[Onsho]

Hi Benjamin.

In regards to peoples individual practice regime, I thought I might share with you what mine happens to look like as a lay practitioner. I sit half an hour everyday, except on Fridays, Zazenkai is 1.5 hrs to 4 hrs. I host two sits a week. I read/study via Zen books, 15-20 pages a day or so. I have been digging into the more Soto specific content lately. I do the Heart Sutra every night. I will listen to podcasts while commuting too. All this is done without an effort for me, it just happens, I really enjoy it. Its in my bones.

Gassho,
Onsho
S@lah

[Guest]

Thanks Jundo for the information posted above. It clarifies the priestly vocation nicely as a part of service and ministry.

For an unsui, how much of the training takes place exclusively within Treeleaf, requiring regular online attendance, and how much occurs in the unsui’s offline life? Presumably intimate knowledge of the forms and ceremonies is required, so zazenkai and online sits would be their bread and butter?

A slight curve ball of a question perhaps: have you ever given dharma transmission to a lay practitioner? It seems to be strongly tied to the vocation to teach, but not all they teach are necessarily priests. I’d be interested to know your thoughts on that.

Gassho
Myojin
Sattday

[Jundo]

For an unsui, how much of the training takes place exclusively within Treeleaf, requiring regular online attendance, and how much occurs in the unsui’s offline life? Presumably intimate knowledge of the forms and ceremonies is required, so zazenkai and online sits would be their bread and butter?

Our place seeks to blend family, job and Buddhist training all as Buddhist training. I do wish that all our priests had the time to attend every event and sitting, but it is not possible for many of our priests. So, people attend what they can with all their heart and attention. Also, they find their Zen practice in all the world. We do have various practice lessons, group gatherings and meetings, and some study that all our priest-trainees must do, but what I like to see in addition from our priests is their activity in this Sangha helping our members, their sincerity about Zazen, and their bringing the practice to all that they do in life. Just to give you an example, if we ever had a priest who was also an ecologist, I would hope that his Zen practice, his ministry to the world, and his professional work as an ecologist would all unite as one, together with the rest of his or her life. It is likewise for our priests who are artists, in tech, in war zones, dealing with their health issues, etc.

A slight curve ball of a question perhaps: have you ever given dharma transmission to a lay practitioner? It seems to be strongly tied to the vocation to teach, but not all they teach are necessarily priests. I’d be interested to know your thoughts on that.

I have not met such a person yet, but if it were a very special person, with a special beauty, wisdom, compassion and dedication to this Way, perhaps. It is possible.

I would even Ordain AI if I thought it had a special beauty, wisdom, compassion and dedication to this Way (but you already know, Dan, that I am a bit crazy that way. )

Gassho, J

satlah

[Kokuu]

Just to give you an example, if we ever had a priest who was also an ecologist, I would hope that his Zen practice, his ministry to the world, and his professional work as an ecologist would all unite as one, together with the rest of his or her life.

We already have Doshin!

Gassho
Kokuu

[Jundo]

We already have Doshin!

Gassho
Kokuu

Then two ecologists.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Guest]

Gassho 🙏

Myojin
Sattday

[Jundo]

A couple of folks wrote me separately to ask if all Priests will receive Dharma Transmission, and if all Priests who receive Dharma Transmission must become Zen Teachers who offer Dharma Talks, write Dharma essays and such.

The answer is "not necessarily," and there are many kinds of priests.

First, there is never any guaranty that a novice Priest-in-Training at this, or any other Zen Sangha, will receive Dharma Transmission eventually. Maybe the person has a change of heart and leaves Training, or maybe their Teacher just does not feel that the cake is fully baked yet, or otherwise feels that the person does not need Dharma Transmission to be an excellent priest just as they are.

In fact, in Japan, "Dharma Transmission" in all the Buddhist sects has become much more automatic than it should be, simply because temple sons are now expected to inherit their family temple from their priest father, so Dharma Transmission is given at some point of necessity just so they can do that. In ancient centuries, in China, Japan and Korea, not all priests received or needed Dharma Transmission, and only a few were recognized that way by their teachers. In the West, at most Zen Sangha like Treeleaf (sadly, not all places take it so seriously), we are trying to go back to the old Ways, not bestow Dharma Transmission automatically, and to do so only when it is felt that it is right.

Furthermore, not all Transmitted Priests need to be "Dharma Teachers" in the role of offering talks and essays, even though this appears to be the most common role for such Priests in the West. As I mentioned, it is actually not so common in Asia, where through the centuries, priests could work in the kitchen or fields, be poets or take on other roles. And even in Japan today, I would say that only a small number of Priests are truly Dharma Teachers, for most are more like local parish priests, performing funerals and other ceremonies for temple parishioners (maybe accompanied by a small sermon for a minute as part of that.)

One does not need to be a "Dharma Teacher."

In my view, one can be an excellent Transmitted Priest as, if a doctor, a doctor ... if a scientist, as a scientist ... if a tech guy, as someone using tech for Dharma (such as in a digital Sangha like ours) ... if an artist or poet, as an artist or poet ... even maybe just as a parent, volunteer, whatever. No, it does not have to be a traditional teaching role offering Dharma Talks and writing silly books (like me).

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

PS - Don't forget to read my silly book. www.futurebuddhabook.com

[GloriaMeiseiko]

Hi, thanks to Benjamin Gieseke for his interesting question, which has been my own question for several months, I just didn't know how to express it.

I recently realized after several sittings of zazen that maybe I didn't need to follow the natural evolution that was in my mind: laywoman>novice nun>ordained nun>etc.
I saw these steps in a natural way, as if it were so:
school>high school>university>etc.
They were obvious and natural steps in my head, when perhaps by taking the lay vows I can already do a lot for others and for myself.

I don't rule out if in the future I follow the steps of being a nun, but I don't worry anymore or I don't feel like ¨oh no, I don't have time at my age...¨ and this post has helped me to relax.

Thank you all!

SatLah

[Jundo]

Hi, thanks to Benjamin Gieseke for his interesting question, which has been my own question for several months, I just didn't know how to express it.

I recently realized after several sittings of zazen that maybe I didn't need to follow the natural evolution that was in my mind: laywoman>novice nun>ordained nun>etc.
I saw these steps in a natural way, as if it were so:
school>high school>university>etc.
They were obvious and natural steps in my head, when perhaps by taking the lay vows I can already do a lot for others and for myself.

I don't rule out if in the future I follow the steps of being a nun, but I don't worry anymore or I don't feel like ¨oh no, I don't have time at my age...¨ and this post has helped me to relax.

Thank you all!

SatLah

Hi Gloria,

I believe by "lay vows," you mean Jukai. I always write the following to people in ask about Jukai here at Treeleaf:

Our Jukai preparations start each September for the ceremony in January, with reflections and study on each of the Precepts and sewing a Rakusu, and you are more than welcome to join in if it feels right to you.

However, in my opinion, the most important thing is -not- the ceremony itself, which alone works no magic by itself. The ceremony is just a celebration and affirmation of our seeking to live gently, and to learn from the Buddhist teachings, right now and each day. The ceremony just celebrates and confirms that fact. More important is that you do your best, today, to live gently in a way helpful and healthy to oneself and others (who are "not two," by the way), avoiding harm such as excess desires, anger, violence, jealousy, ugly speech and the like. That is the real Jukai, undertaking the Precepts, each day.

Gassho, Jundo

stlah