What are Novice Monks Called in Vietnamese?

[Seiko]

My Vietnamese students insist that all monks are referred to as "thâ'y" but this translates as "teacher". They already know I am new to these robes and very much the novice, far from being a teacher, but they say using any other term would cause confusion amongst Vietnamese friends and family.

I wonder if there is a widely understood term in Vietnamese, for a novice monk? Perhaps my students just don't know it yet, but older Vietnamese people might?

Gasshō
Seiko
stlah

[Bion]

It’s true as far as I can see from a simple search. “Any Vietnamese monk in the Mahayana tradition can be addressed as "thầy", with monks addressed as thầy tu ("monk") and nuns addressed as sư cô ("sister") or sư bà ("elder sister") “

Gassho
Sat and lah

[Jundo]

Probably it does not apply directly to the Japanese way of administering Precents, but the "English-Vietnamese Buddhist Dictionary Volume 5" (https://thuvienhoasen.org/a26140/tu-...-anh-viet-pdf-) says that "Novice (n): Sramanera—Sramananerika" would be "Sa di" or "Sa di ni" or Tu só môùi taäp sö."

A sāmaṇera (Pali), Sanskrit: श्रामणेर (śrāmaṇera), is a novice male monastic in a Buddhist context.[1] A female novice is a śrāmaṇerī or śrāmaṇerikā (Sanskrit; Pāli: sāmaṇerī). ... In some South and Southeast Asian Buddhist traditions, the term refers to someone who has taken the initial pravrajya vows but not the upasampada or full ordination. The pratimokṣa rules do not apply to them and they do not take part in the recital of the rules on uposatha days. ...

I bet, however, that the average non-monk person would not understand what that is.

In Japan, we all receive the 16 Bodhisattva Precepts at Ordination, the the same Precepts again in Dharma Transmission to become a Transmitted Teacher ... and the same 16 Bodhisattva Precepts for lay Jukai ... so the system of Precepts is not quite the same.

So, I agree with Bion, as "Thay" seems to be just a word for "teacher," like "Sensei" in Japanese which is used for elementary or college school teachers, politicians, my dentist, a gifted artist, a book author ...

So, I would let them call you Sensei if they wish, but just don't let it go to your head.

Gassho, J

[Huichan]

In China, most lay people wouldn't know the difference, either. Generally the term 师傅/shifu is used when addressing monks, which could be used outside of a monastic setting too as a polite greeting to an older male. I think this seems a little bit similar to the term thâ'y in Vietnamese.


Ross
Stlah

[Jundo]

So, I agree with Bion, as "Thay" seems to be just a word for "teacher," like "Sensei" in Japanese which is used for elementary or college school teachers, politicians, my dentist, a gifted artist, a book author ...

By the way, some western Zen groups make "Sensei" and "Roshi" into ranks of some sort for Zen teachers. This is pretty much a western/American invention. "Sensei" is not a rank in Japanese Zen, and is in fact, rarely used in addressing any monk or priest. It just means "teacher," and is most commonly heard for school teachers, doctors and dentists, politicians, or martial arts teachers ... but not Buddhist priests at all.

In Rinzai Zen, "Roshi" is a formal rank, but not in Soto Zen. In Soto, it just means "old teacher," which usually just is a respectful form of address for any older monk, but not a rank. There is a joke that any old priest that can get his students to call him "Roshi" is now a "Roshi." (I received a lovely "Roshi" ceremony from the wonderful Daiho Hilbert many years ago in the Matsuoka Lineage, but I consider that just a lovely gift between him and me. https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...Roshi-Ceremony) I think such titles are kinda silly.

There are other titles too, like "Zenji" for someone (like our Dharma Grandfather, Niwa Zenji) who was an Abbot of Eiheiji or Sojiji Head Temples. There is also "Osho" as a rank in Japanese Soto Zen for someone (most priests here) who have undergone a special extra ceremony of being "Abbot for a Day" (Zuise) at both Eiheiji and Sojiji, but most western priests do not follow this custom. (The SZBA held there own "Dharma Heritage Ceremony" which was, originally, meant as our "Zuise" and I was fortunate to participate many years ago.) However, the term "Osho" is rarely used in direct address to the person. Some of the particularly cherished old Ancestors are sometimes called "Dai-Osho" (Great Osho).

Let me add that the habit of many western priests to call themself "Roshi" is just strange by Asian custom. One never refers to oneself with such a title. It would be something like the judge coming into court and referring to himself as "My Honor."

Best term for a Zen teacher, if you ask me, is "Zenchishiki," which means sometimes like "Wise Friend Along the Way." Any monk or priest is a "Soryo" (Sangha Companion) or "Obosan" (Keeper of the Temple). "Priest" and "Monk" are Christian terms which do not quite fit, although not totally wrong either.

Gassho, My Honor, Jundo

stlah

[Kaitan]

I like the word Zenchishiki, does anyone addresses you like that, Jundo?

Gasshō

stlah, Kaitan

[Jundo]

I like the word Zenchishiki, does anyone addresses you like that, Jundo?

Gasshō

stlah, Kaitan

No.

Gassho, J

[Ryumon]

Zenchishiki sounds Yiddish. :-)

Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat Lah

[Tai Shi]

I am not an Obosan though I make comments of encouragement in poetry threads or places where I can comment positively. My title is Ubasoku which, I have been told by Jundo in a little ceremony during Jukai, meaning "grandmotherly, positive, supportive" so I may be pleasant and positive limiting my comments to two or three short comments per day, and one positive poem per day (positive in poetry limited to interpretation). I looked up the meaning online in Bing, and it indicates "a lay member half way between" "lay" and "priest" And it is a Lay member. The term derived from Sanskrit 優婆塞 Devout follower.
Gassho
sat/lah

[Kokuu]

As most of you probably know, Thich Nhat Hanh was often referred to as Thầy which, as mentioned here, seems to mean teacher, and functions like Sensei in Japanese or Ajahn in Thai.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Guest]

Oh in the Korean lineage, there was the same things with monks. Sunim is used for full monk or nun and also used for novice monk or nun.

In the school, it got quite confusing:

When I was asked by my teacher to train as a Dharma Teacher I was a Dharma Teacher in Training (DTIT) known as a Haeng-ja

A full Dharma Teacher it is referred to as Poep Sa (Novice Monks or Sunim are equivalent to a Full Dharma Teacher)

When after becoming a full Dharma Teacher after 5 years you can be appointed to be a Senior Dharma Teacher it is referred to as Son Do Poep Sa (Good Guide).

They also had Bodhisattva Dharma Teachers that is as close to a full bhikku or bhikkuni that a lay person could be.

A person receiving Inka, the ability to teach Kong-ans to others is a Ji Do Poep Sa Nim (Point Guide).

And a Zen Master is one who receives transmission and is referred to as a Zen Master. If a monk they may earn the title of Dae Soen Sa (Great Zen Master).

As a Senior Dharma Teacher, I could give consulting interviews. These are much like Dokusan in the Soto tradition. But, only Ji Do Poep Sa Nims or Zen Masters could do Kong-an interviews. Usually, if a Ji Do Poep Sa Nim or Zen Master is present at a Zen Center, only they can become an Abbot of the center. In their absence from the center (not living nearby) then the Senior Dharma Teacher can take this role. This is how I inherited the challenges (headaches) of running a center.

Gassho,
Daiman

[Seiko]

I would let them call you Sensei if they wish, but just don't let it go to your head.

Thank you.

By the way, "Keeper of the Temple" in Vietnamese -
người giữ đền - has an impolite sexual connotation.



Gasshō
Seiko
Stlah

[Seiko]

As most of you probably know, Thich Nhat Hanh was often referred to as Thầy which, as mentioned here, seems to mean teacher, and functions like Sensei in Japanese or Ajahn in Thai.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

Most young Vietnamese I meet have never heard of TNH. Buddhist temples and sanghas require government approval to operate openly in Vietnam. I don't think TNH got that approval...?

Gasshō
Seiko
stlah

[Seiko]

It’s true as far as I can see from a simple search. “Any Vietnamese monk in the Mahayana tradition can be addressed as "thầy", with monks addressed as thầy tu ("monk") and nuns addressed as sư cô ("sister") or sư bà ("elder sister") “

Gassho
Sat and lah

Gasshō
Seiko
Stlah

[Shinshi]

Most young Vietnamese I meet have never heard of TNH. Buddhist temples and sanghas require government approval to operate openly in Vietnam. I don't think TNH got that approval...?

Gasshō
Seiko
stlah

That is a pity, he worked hard for peace in Vietnam.

He was exiled by the South Vietnamese government in 1966 due to his peace efforts (the same efforts the prompted Martin Luther King to nominate him for the Nobel Peace Prize).

https://www.lionsroar.com/the-life-of-thich-nhat-hanh/

https://plumvillage.org/about/thich-nhat-hanh/biography

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Nh%E1%BA%A5t_H%E1%BA%A1nh

Gassho,

Shinshi