Verse of atonement: "created" vs "committed"

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  • Chikyou
    Member
    • May 2022
    • 630

    Verse of atonement: "created" vs "committed"

    Dear Sangha,

    Over the course of the past year and especially in the last couple of months, I've heard various Inos recite the Verse of Atonement. About half of the time, the word "created" is used instead of "committed".

    Is there a reason for this, aside from personal preference? Is it a translation difference, or has there been a change in the liturgy? Is one preferred over the other?

    Gassho,
    Sat
    Kelly
    Chikyō 知鏡
    (KellyLM)
  • Kokuu
    Treeleaf Priest
    • Nov 2012
    • 6841

    #2
    Hi Kelly

    I only have 'committed' in my chant book so would be interested to hear if others do chant 'created' instead, and if that was ever a translation we used here.

    At the Sotoshu website, they use 'perpetrated' which seems similar to commited.

    I now entirely repent
    all the evil actions I have perpetrated in the past,
    arising from beginningless greed, anger, and delusion,
    and manifested through body, speech, and mind.



    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-

    Comment

    • Guest

      #3
      Originally posted by KellyLM
      Dear Sangha,

      Over the course of the past year and especially in the last couple of months, I've heard various Inos recite the Verse of Atonement. About half of the time, the word "created" is used instead of "committed".

      Is there a reason for this, aside from personal preference? Is it a translation difference, or has there been a change in the liturgy? Is one preferred over the other?

      Gassho,
      Sat
      Kelly
      Hi Kelly,

      I noticed that the last time I recited it, I used created instead of committed. Somehow, the older Eko translation got funneled down into my current chant book. I have since changed it back to the current translation which is "committed." Either way works I think. An early version of the Sotoshu version reads "...all my past and harmful karma..." The way I understand it is that Karma is related to action or activity. Created means you created it, but committed simply means an act was done and it was not necessarily purposeful or intentional or maybe it was, none the less an act was committed (done) through words, thoughts, and actions that you recognize brings harm to self and others and so offer atonement for it.

      Please take what I say here with a grain of salt. I am just a novice priest learning about these things as I travel this path. Someone with more understanding of this may shed more clarity on this than I am able to provide.

      Gassho,
      Daiman
      St/LAH

      Comment

      • Guest

        #4
        Originally posted by Daiman
        Hi Kelly,

        I noticed that the last time I recited it, I used created instead of committed. Somehow, the older Eko translation got funneled down into my current chant book. I have since changed it back to the current translation which is "committed." Either way works I think. An early version of the Sotoshu version reads "...all my past and harmful karma..." The way I understand it is that Karma is related to action or activity. Created means you created it, but committed simply means an act was done and it was not necessarily purposeful or intentional or maybe it was, none the less an act was committed (done) through words, thoughts, and actions that you recognize brings harm to self and others and so offer atonement for it.

        Please take what I say here with a grain of salt. I am just a novice priest learning about these things as I travel this path. Someone with more understanding of this may shed more clarity on this than I am able to provide.

        Gassho,
        Daiman
        St/LAH
        Ooh, I see Kokuu was posting at the same time as me.

        Daiman
        St/LAH

        Comment

        • Jundo
          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
          • Apr 2006
          • 40308

          #5
          Hi Kelly,

          Please recall that these are all English interpretations, not originally in English but in Chinese, expressed by various translators with many right ways to say something. All the English versions are just somebody's interpretation and expression. There are many good ways, and we can debate which is a little better here or there. The older Sōtō School Scriptures for Daily Services and Practice has “All my past and harmful karma, / born from beginningless greed, hate, and delusion, / through body, speech, and mind, / I now fully avow.

          Our version came from my old mentor in Maezumi Roshi's Lineage, Doshin Cantor. Many (not all) in that Lineage use "committed." For example:

          Barry Magid - All harmful actions ever committed by me since of old https://www.ordinarymind.com/talks/1...ibly-keep-them

          Also, I notice, Domyo Burk (of the Zen Studies Podcast), is very close to ours

          All harmful karma ever committed by me since of old,
          On account of my beginningless greed, anger, and ignorance,
          Born of my body, mouth, and thought,
          Now I atone for it all.

          https://drive.google.com/file/d/1B1t...usp=drive_link
          They all come from a Chinese original that looks like this:

          懺悔文

          我昔所造諸悪業
          皆由無始貪瞋痴
          従身口意之所生
          一切我今皆懺悔

          The key expression is 造諸悪業.

          Now, recall that, first, Chinese, unlike English, is written in "blocks" that literally read like this

          我 me/I
          昔 the past
          所 what is/that is
          造 make/commit
          諸 various
          悪 bad/evil
          業 karma

          So, the key Chinese character is 造. What is 造? It literally means:

          to make; to build; to manufacture
          造船 ― zàochuán ― to build a ship
          仿造 ― fǎngzào ― to produce something after a model; to copy
          創造/创造 ― chuàngzào ― to create
          造房子 ― zào fángzǐ ― to build a house
          But Buddhist dictionaries have:

          To create. [作, 造] 〔三家龜鑑 HBJ 7.619c16〕 [Charles Muller]
          To do, perform. [行] [Charles Muller]
          To become. [成] [Charles Muller]
          Why "do" or "perform," rather than just "create?" Because Karma (業) is the good or bad ACTION done by body, speech or in thought (Function, action (Skt. karman; karma, kriyā; Tib. bya ba, las, 'phrin las) 作用. Deeds and their effects on the character, especially in their relation to succeeding forms of transmigration ... [Charles Muller; source(s): Ui, Nakamura, Stephen Hodge, JEBD, Yokoi, Iwanami] http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin...pl?q=%E6%A5%AD)

          Now, Karma is also understood as a kind of "energy" that is created by the action, and results in a Karmic effect. (Karma is also understood as the morally-charged energy in which each being survives death for further rebirth or metempsychosis, shown in the form of distinct (karmic) effects. Thus karma also refers to the traces, remainder or results of these three kinds of karmic activity; the latent functional energies—causes and conditions coming from the actions which will eventually bring about some other result; future retribution, and either good or evil transmigration 分別果. [Charles Muller])

          So, Karma itself means the ACTION done which makes a kind of "energy" that produces a Karmic effect.

          For that reason, one could say that one is "creating" that energy and effect. HOWEVER, the apology and atonement in the chant is not for the energy or effect, but for DOING the harmful ACTION! So, "created" is not the right word here. Maybe one could say that one is "making/creating an action" (which is actually correct to say in Chinese/Japanese, but sounds a bit strange in English although we sometimes say "make a move" or "make an action" I suppose.) But the focus is "doing" or "committing" the harmful act. One is not atoning for the energy created (that is going to effect you alone, sometime later). One is atoning for what was DONE in act, word or thought.

          So, I dare say that, while not wrong, "created" is not the best translation choice here. "Done" or "committed" is more accurate and, for reasons of sound and poetry, "committed" just sounds better than "done."

          According to scholars, the verse comes from “Samantabhadra’s Vows,” chapter 40 of the Avatamsaka Sūtra (Hua-yan or "Flower Garland" Sutra), which was first translated from Sanskrit into Chinese by Buddhabhadra in 419 to 420.

          Gassho, Jundo

          stlah

          PS - I really like that current Soto-shu "perpetrated" that Kokuu mentioned. It sounds like we need to call a detective!
          Last edited by Jundo; 09-21-2023, 10:39 PM.
          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

          Comment

          • Jundo
            Treeleaf Founder and Priest
            • Apr 2006
            • 40308

            #6
            PPS - I am going to add this discussion to our little section about our chants here:

            ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

            Comment

            • Chikyou
              Member
              • May 2022
              • 630

              #7
              Originally posted by Jundo
              Hi Kelly,

              Please recall that these are all English interpretations, not originally in English but in Chinese, expressed by various translators with many right ways to say something. All the English versions are just somebody's interpretation and expression. There are many good ways, and we can debate which is a little better here or there. The older Sōtō School Scriptures for Daily Services and Practice has “All my past and harmful karma, / born from beginningless greed, hate, and delusion, / through body, speech, and mind, / I now fully avow.

              Our version came from my old mentor in Maezumi Roshi's Lineage, Doshin Cantor. Many (not all) in that Lineage use "committed." For example:

              Barry Magid - All harmful actions ever committed by me since of old https://www.ordinarymind.com/talks/1...ibly-keep-them

              Also, I notice, Domyo Burk (of the Zen Studies Podcast), is very close to ours



              They all come from a Chinese original that looks like this:

              懺悔文

              我昔所造諸悪業
              皆由無始貪瞋痴
              従身口意之所生
              一切我今皆懺悔

              The key expression is 造諸悪業.

              Now, recall that, first, Chinese, unlike English, is written in "blocks" that literally read like this

              我 me/I
              昔 the past
              所 what is/that is
              造 make/commit
              諸 various
              悪 bad/evil
              業 karma

              So, the key Chinese character is 造. What is 造? It literally means:



              But Buddhist dictionaries have:



              Why "do" or "perform," rather than just "create?" Because Karma (業) is the good or bad ACTION done by body, speech or in thought (Function, action (Skt. karman; karma, kriyā; Tib. bya ba, las, 'phrin las) 作用. Deeds and their effects on the character, especially in their relation to succeeding forms of transmigration ... [Charles Muller; source(s): Ui, Nakamura, Stephen Hodge, JEBD, Yokoi, Iwanami] http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin...pl?q=%E6%A5%AD)

              Now, Karma is also understood as a kind of "energy" that is created by the action, and results in a Karmic effect. (Karma is also understood as the morally-charged energy in which each being survives death for further rebirth or metempsychosis, shown in the form of distinct (karmic) effects. Thus karma also refers to the traces, remainder or results of these three kinds of karmic activity; the latent functional energies—causes and conditions coming from the actions which will eventually bring about some other result; future retribution, and either good or evil transmigration 分別果. [Charles Muller])

              So, Karma itself means the ACTION done which makes a kind of "energy" that produces a Karmic effect.

              For that reason, one could say that one is "creating" that energy and effect. HOWEVER, the apology and atonement in the chant is not for the energy or effect, but for DOING the harmful ACTION! So, "created" is not the right word here. Maybe one could say that one is "making/creating an action" (which is actually correct to say in Chinese/Japanese, but sounds a bit strange in English although we sometimes say "make a move" or "make an action" I suppose.) But the focus is "doing" or "committing" the harmful act. One is not atoning for the energy created (that is going to effect you alone, sometime later). One is atoning for what was DONE in act, word or thought.

              So, I dare say that, while not wrong, "created" is not the best translation choice here. "Done" or "committed" is more accurate and, for reasons of sound and poetry, "committed" just sounds better than "done."

              According to scholars, the verse comes from “Samantabhadra’s Vows,” chapter 40 of the Avatamsaka Sūtra (Hua-yan or "Flower Garland" Sutra), which was first translated from Sanskrit into Chinese by Buddhabhadra in 419 to 420.

              Gassho, Jundo

              stlah

              PS - I really like that current Soto-shu "perpetrated" that Kokuu mentioned. It sounds like we need to call a detective!


              Gassho,
              SatLah
              Kelly
              Chikyō 知鏡
              (KellyLM)

              Comment

              • Guest

                #8
                Verse of atonement: "created" vs "committed"

                Thank you Jundo for the clarification. My interpretation of this is in line with the idea that “committed” is the better way to translate this.

                Gassho
                Daiman
                St


                Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                Last edited by Guest; 09-22-2023, 12:57 AM.

                Comment

                • Seiko
                  Treeleaf Unsui
                  • Jul 2020
                  • 1013

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Jundo
                  Hi Kelly,

                  Please recall that these are all English interpretations, not originally in English but in Chinese, expressed by various translators with many right ways to say something. All the English versions are just somebody's interpretation and expression. There are many good ways, and we can debate which is a little better here or there. The older Sōtō School Scriptures for Daily Services and Practice has “All my past and harmful karma, / born from beginningless greed, hate, and delusion, / through body, speech, and mind, / I now fully avow.

                  Our version came from my old mentor in Maezumi Roshi's Lineage, Doshin Cantor. Many (not all) in that Lineage use "committed." For example:

                  Barry Magid - All harmful actions ever committed by me since of old https://www.ordinarymind.com/talks/1...ibly-keep-them

                  Also, I notice, Domyo Burk (of the Zen Studies Podcast), is very close to ours



                  They all come from a Chinese original that looks like this:

                  懺悔文

                  我昔所造諸悪業
                  皆由無始貪瞋痴
                  従身口意之所生
                  一切我今皆懺悔

                  The key expression is 造諸悪業.

                  Now, recall that, first, Chinese, unlike English, is written in "blocks" that literally read like this

                  我 me/I
                  昔 the past
                  所 what is/that is
                  造 make/commit
                  諸 various
                  悪 bad/evil
                  業 karma

                  So, the key Chinese character is 造. What is 造? It literally means:



                  But Buddhist dictionaries have:



                  Why "do" or "perform," rather than just "create?" Because Karma (業) is the good or bad ACTION done by body, speech or in thought (Function, action (Skt. karman; karma, kriyā; Tib. bya ba, las, 'phrin las) 作用. Deeds and their effects on the character, especially in their relation to succeeding forms of transmigration ... [Charles Muller; source(s): Ui, Nakamura, Stephen Hodge, JEBD, Yokoi, Iwanami] http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin...pl?q=%E6%A5%AD)

                  Now, Karma is also understood as a kind of "energy" that is created by the action, and results in a Karmic effect. (Karma is also understood as the morally-charged energy in which each being survives death for further rebirth or metempsychosis, shown in the form of distinct (karmic) effects. Thus karma also refers to the traces, remainder or results of these three kinds of karmic activity; the latent functional energies—causes and conditions coming from the actions which will eventually bring about some other result; future retribution, and either good or evil transmigration 分別果. [Charles Muller])

                  So, Karma itself means the ACTION done which makes a kind of "energy" that produces a Karmic effect.

                  For that reason, one could say that one is "creating" that energy and effect. HOWEVER, the apology and atonement in the chant is not for the energy or effect, but for DOING the harmful ACTION! So, "created" is not the right word here. Maybe one could say that one is "making/creating an action" (which is actually correct to say in Chinese/Japanese, but sounds a bit strange in English although we sometimes say "make a move" or "make an action" I suppose.) But the focus is "doing" or "committing" the harmful act. One is not atoning for the energy created (that is going to effect you alone, sometime later). One is atoning for what was DONE in act, word or thought.

                  So, I dare say that, while not wrong, "created" is not the best translation choice here. "Done" or "committed" is more accurate and, for reasons of sound and poetry, "committed" just sounds better than "done."

                  According to scholars, the verse comes from “Samantabhadra’s Vows,” chapter 40 of the Avatamsaka Sūtra (Hua-yan or "Flower Garland" Sutra), which was first translated from Sanskrit into Chinese by Buddhabhadra in 419 to 420.

                  Gassho, Jundo

                  stlah

                  PS - I really like that current Soto-shu "perpetrated" that Kokuu mentioned. It sounds like we need to call a detective!


                  Bows
                  Seiko
                  stlah
                  Gandō Seiko
                  頑道清光
                  (Stubborn Way of Pure Light)

                  My street name is 'Al'.

                  Any words I write here are merely the thoughts of an apprentice priest, just my opinions, that's all.

                  Comment

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