Yeah, I usually stick to “within the last 24 hors. I used to only take into account “since I woke up” but changed as my schedule changed and as I needed to chime in at odd hours. Since I always have sat within the previous 12 - 24 hours, it seems honest. [emoji3526]
[emoji1374] Sat Today
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With an international Sangha on a spherical planet with timezones, I wouldn't mind you posting "sat today" if you have sat today or yesterday. ;-)
As the posting, Jundo linked to in his answer indicates, we'd refrain from posting if we haven't sat today or yesterday anyways.
Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.Leave a comment:
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I agree; that's the right approach!
Here are some Sunday morning thoughts that have come to my mind regarding this, that sitting is really all that is needed!
As I've been listening to various Zen books, I've come to appreciate the difficulty and potential frustration authors may face when attempting to explain Zen. It seems that many of these books repeat the same ideas in different ways, possibly due to the inherent limitations of using conceptual language to describe non-conceptual understanding.
In the world of concepts and words ("this" and "that"), we can only use language to point out contradictions, which in turn point to something else. However, we cannot rely on the "finger that points" (I think that phrase comes from some zen story somewhere!) to truly understand. Instead, we must "see" (though even that word is inadequate) and experience directly.
Analogies, such as the river and thoughts floating downstream, can be helpful, but they also conceptually separate thoughts from the river. A more accurate analogy might be that thoughts are like eddies in the river, both part of the river and something the river itself manifests. Our mind is both the river and the source of thoughts as eddies, which are not truly separate from the river. Koans excel at illustrating this point (kind of!), as they present truths that are conceptually contradictory and cannot be understood in the usual way.
Discussing the philosophy of Zen can feel like a dog chasing its tail. While it may not be entirely pointless (dogs enjoy chasing their tails, and humans enjoy pondering philosophy and Zen!), it often leads me to question why we talk about Zen at all. It seems that practicing zazen is all that is truly needed, and discussing it may only serve as a distraction.
This is where I usually get into trouble! At least on an intellectual level, I understand that trying to think about Zen leads to circular mental activity that goes round and round. Then during my Zazen my head goes round and round with thoughts. Gotta just let em go
Explaining Zen and non-conceptual understanding to others in a way that makes sense is incredibly challenging! Heck, explaining it to myself is hard enough. Words can only convey the reality they represent, which is limited by their conceptual nature.
- Sat today!
By the way, what do we say if we have not sat but intend to sit? Should we say "Intend to sit today?". Also, I use grammarly to fix my grammar on posts sometimes, whenever I do I make sure people know as AI posts are infiltrating forums and I wouldn't want somebody to think my grammar was "too good" lol! I just feel that proper grammar is a form of respect for whomever is taking the time to read my postLast edited by Douglas; 06-18-2023, 03:16 PM.Leave a comment:
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Thank you, Douglas ...
Gassho, JundoPS = Douglas, would you kindly sign "SatToday" or the like to your posts? Thank you. It encourages others. Also, a human face photo to accompany your posts helps keep this place human, and would be appreciated.
SatToday - Make sure you have SAT before joining in forum CHAT!
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...-forum-CHAT%21
stlahLeave a comment:
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[emoji120][emoji120][emoji120]Inspired by you ...
The Elephant in the Zazen Room
Gassho, J
stlah
Gassho, Michael
SatlahLeave a comment:
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Inspired by you ...
The Elephant in the Zazen Room
Gassho, J
stlahLeave a comment:
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What is a gaining thought? Isn't purposely non-doing a gainful thought or desire?
Thank you [emoji120][emoji120]It is good, EXCELLENT in fact, and more importantly, if it feels right to you, then you will know because you experience that the thinking simplifies, sometimes drops away, while a certain Clarity and Wholeness, equanimity and allowance manifest in your heart. Your description is a bit intellectual, like the difference between walking naturally and explaining in "user's manual" technical description "how to walk," so I cannot fully judge how you are walking from the description really. However it sounds very good.
Intellectual - most likely[emoji28] After a MSc in Pscyhology and more than a decade of management consulting, my mind is like an engineer’s mind. A risk of the profession I guess. Boxes, arrows and steps. The poetic language used here in this sangha is beautiful and inspirational, but I have a long way to go before I can match the poetic style that most of you are using [emoji120]
Looking forward to reading it[emoji4]
Gassho, Michael
SatlahLeave a comment:
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Hi Michael,
It is good, EXCELLENT in fact, and more importantly, if it feels right to you, then you will know because you experience that the thinking simplifies, sometimes drops away, while a certain Clarity and Wholeness, equanimity and allowance manifest in your heart. Your description is a bit intellectual, like the difference between walking naturally and explaining in "user's manual" technical description "how to walk," so I cannot fully judge how you are walking from the description really. However it sounds very good.
Of course, this does not mean to think about thoughts, then to think about something else, or to intentionally notice them. Things in the room or things in our head pass through, and we just don't become tangled with them.“Open awareness” implies that sometimes we are aware of thought, sometimes something else.
In fact, I am going to turn the "elephant in the room" into a little essay now. I think that it will convey just what you are describing. It will begin with an image something like:
To understand the mind of Shikantaza, imagine an elephant wandered into the room where you are sitting Zazen and you just let it, as if it were no more than the cat wandering through, or even just a breeze or ray of light through the window ... maybe not even that.
Something like that.
Gassho, J
stlahLast edited by Jundo; 06-03-2023, 10:27 AM.Leave a comment:
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What is a gaining thought? Isn't purposely non-doing a gainful thought or desire?
Not really an answer or perspective on the thread, but your comment, Jundo, made me think about my own sitting.
Let the elephant come or not come: we don’t try to stop our thoughts. We sit in radical equanimity and open awareness. “Open awareness” implies that sometimes we are aware of thought, sometimes something else.
Don’t get on for a ride: we don’t intentionally interact with the thoughts. Interacting with thoughts is thinking (verb). You know that you are thinking when there are narratives.
Don’t care about it (a): sometimes you are aware of all thoughts. If you then don’t care about the thoughts (sit with equanimity), thinking doesn’t occur. Sometimes no thoughts at all appear (only glimpses of this every now and then in my case, and always very short). However, you should not grasp for either of these scenarios like you should not grasp for anything while sitting. Sometimes it happens, sometimes not. Just sit and let the rest take care of itself. It’s all good.
Don’t care about it (b): More frequently however, I unconsciously interact with the thought (start a narrative) and only later become aware of the fact that I am thinking. When you become aware of the thinking, you simply don’t care that you have been thinking. It’s all good. This attitude (equanimity) makes sure that you i) stop the thinking and ii) don’t start to think about the thinking (e.g. “what am I doing wrong since I’m thinking?”). The thinking wanders out and you are once again just sitting with equanimity and open awareness. Rinse and repeat 10 000 times over, and then another 10 000 times.
Trying to put my own words on this, AND this is how I practice these days. Any adjustments needed? Thank you in advance.
Sorry for running long.
Gassho, Michael
SatlahLast edited by Houzan; 06-02-2023, 07:22 PM.Leave a comment:
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Hmmm. It is more like, "Let the elephant come or not come into the room, but just don't get on for a ride, don't care about it, let it wander out again ... " The empty room is the elephant, the elephant is just the light and air of the room.
Gassho, J
stlah
PS = Douglas, would you kindly sign "SatToday" or the like to your posts? Thank you. It encourages others. Also, a human face photo to accompany your posts helps keep this place human, and would be appreciated.
SatToday - Make sure you have SAT before joining in forum CHAT!
Last edited by Jundo; 06-02-2023, 03:59 PM.Leave a comment:
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Thanks for that! Of course, intellectually I can say "sure! That's what I'm doing I think" but that's just my thinking! Think non-thought is kinda like asking somebody to not think of an elephant.Hi Douglas,
You describe a kind of obsessive fixation on something which should be a grand relaxing and letting go. It is a bit like someone trying to ride a bicycle, or even walk, who becomes fixated on "now I must bend my right leg, now I must bend my left," to the point that they cannot move, then trip over themselves. Just relax, let go, let it happen naturally by not trying. Relax, release and drop away all effort.
In your case, I would not recommend attempting "open awareness" now, or trying to "stay balanced" (we never try to stay balanced in Zazen, just another form of trying.) In fact, put down all trying. I would follow the breath. Just feel the breath (don't think anything particularly about it, don't count the breaths) as the breath gently enters and exits at the nose. Feel it, but don't even think "in" or "out" (it does not need you to do that, and breath takes care of itself) and just breathe naturally. Keep your attention there until other thoughts do not become objects of fixation. When you do relax, if you do feel untangled from thoughts, when you feel that you have relaxed from "trying," then you might move to "open awareness" for some time, then back to following the breath if thoughts start to tangle again.
As has been said, Shikantaza Zazen is not about stopping thoughts. It is about not grabbing on, playing with them, getting tangled in their long chains when they appear and come into mind. The train of thoughts comes through the station of the mind, and we just don't get on, letting the trains pass on through.
The river just flows, it does not try to flow, it does not search for the water. The wind just blows, it does not try to blow or search for the air.
Somebody above said to "try to notice the thoughts as they go by," but do not do that. Just let them flit by, like trains passing through the station, or passing clouds through the open blue sky, unmolested by your efforts.
The eye is foolish to search for the eye, like a man searching for his glasses which are already on the tip of his nose. Give up the search, and trust that the eye is already found. Don't try to find the thoughts, don't try to find some self, don't try to find some essence, don't try to stop the thoughts, just put it all down. Just drop the searching and the trying, radically to the bone, and all is found. It is like someone in Times Square searching for New York City as someplace distant and apart. Once he gives up the search for something apart, and trusts that one has already arrived, the Big Apple is found. It is the very hunt and search which keeps one from realizing what is present, so radically drop the hunt and search in the bones.
Do not try to "be aware" during Zazen or try anything at all. (One might nurture more awareness of one's thought patterns perhaps off the cushion, but not on.) On the cushion, give up all trying, like someone putting down a heavy burden, letting it float away as if washed down a river. Just let the trying go.
I like the example of the Olympic spear thrower mentioned, but I would not even try to "Just Do." I would not try to hit any target, or even try to not try. I would just release all effort and rest in completion, where no effort need be made and all is already done. Shikantaza is strange, in that the target is hit not as some distant goal, but right here ... when we give up all attempt to throw. Put down all need to do, and just realize the Zafu is the target and you are the spear already hitting the mark just by sitting.
Sit just to sit, with nothing to do but sitting, sitting as the goal reached in sitting, sitting with trust that not a drop is lacking from this act of sitting. Sitting as the target reached just by butt on cushion, nothing more to do, no other place to be, during the time of sitting. Don't try to do anything else, put down all need to do anything else ... put down all intentional need to find the thoughts, breathe, walk or anything.
If distractions or obsessions come, just follow the breath ...
Gassho, J
stlah
[ATTACH=CONFIG]8460[/ATTACH]
But I suppose it's not the thought but the intention. Just sit.
I'm almost finished with "Opening the hand of thought". I started it just before my first post. This book is very helpful. Though the book points out, that Zazen is the truest teacher.
- Sat todayLast edited by Douglas; 06-14-2023, 02:55 PM.Leave a comment:
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Hi Douglas,
You describe a kind of obsessive fixation on something which should be a grand relaxing and letting go. It is a bit like someone trying to ride a bicycle, or even walk, who becomes fixated on "now I must bend my right leg, now I must bend my left," to the point that they cannot move, then trip over themselves. Just relax, let go, let it happen naturally by not trying. Relax, release and drop away all effort.
In your case, I would not recommend attempting "open awareness" now, or trying to "stay balanced" (we never try to stay balanced in Zazen, just another form of trying.) In fact, put down all trying. I would follow the breath. Just feel the breath (don't think anything particularly about it, don't count the breaths) as the breath gently enters and exits at the nose. Feel it, but don't even think "in" or "out" (it does not need you to do that, and breath takes care of itself) and just breathe naturally. Keep your attention there until other thoughts do not become objects of fixation. When you do relax, if you do feel untangled from thoughts, when you feel that you have relaxed from "trying," then you might move to "open awareness" for some time, then back to following the breath if thoughts start to tangle again.
As has been said, Shikantaza Zazen is not about stopping thoughts. It is about not grabbing on, playing with them, getting tangled in their long chains when they appear and come into mind. The train of thoughts comes through the station of the mind, and we just don't get on, letting the trains pass on through.
The river just flows, it does not try to flow, it does not search for the water. The wind just blows, it does not try to blow or search for the air.
Somebody above said to "try to notice the thoughts as they go by," but do not do that. Just let them flit by, like trains passing through the station, or passing clouds through the open blue sky, unmolested by your efforts.
The eye is foolish to search for the eye, like a man searching for his glasses which are already on the tip of his nose. Give up the search, and trust that the eye is already found. Don't try to find the thoughts, don't try to find some self, don't try to find some essence, don't try to stop the thoughts, just put it all down. Just drop the searching and the trying, radically to the bone, and all is found. It is like someone in Times Square searching for New York City as someplace distant and apart. Once he gives up the search for something apart, and trusts that one has already arrived, the Big Apple is found. It is the very hunt and search which keeps one from realizing what is present, so radically drop the hunt and search in the bones.
Do not try to "be aware" during Zazen or try anything at all. (One might nurture more awareness of one's thought patterns perhaps off the cushion, but not on.) On the cushion, give up all trying, like someone putting down a heavy burden, letting it float away as if washed down a river. Just let the trying go.
I like the example of the Olympic spear thrower mentioned, but I would not even try to "Just Do." I would not try to hit any target, or even try to not try. I would just release all effort and rest in completion, where no effort need be made and all is already done. Shikantaza is strange, in that the target is hit not as some distant goal, but right here ... when we give up all attempt to throw. Put down all need to do, and just realize the Zafu is the target and you are the spear already hitting the mark just by sitting.
Sit just to sit, with nothing to do but sitting, sitting as the goal reached in sitting, sitting with trust that not a drop is lacking from this act of sitting. Sitting as the target reached just by butt on cushion, nothing more to do, no other place to be, during the time of sitting. Don't try to do anything else, put down all need to do anything else ... put down all intentional need to find the thoughts, breathe, walk or anything.
If distractions or obsessions come, just follow the breath ...
Gassho, J
stlah
[ATTACH=CONFIG]8460[/ATTACH]
SatLah
KellyLeave a comment:
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Oh yes, that made me laugh about Descartes. I also realized that my answer could read as though I am suggesting people think about who/what is thinking during Zazen, which will serve to fill the head with more thought.Leave a comment:
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Hi Douglas,
I would advise to put down the intellectual answers and just sit for now.
If Descartes were a Zen fellow, he might experience, "thinking non-thinking, leaping through "I" "you" "am" and "am not," yet also each and all of those things."
Gassho, J
stlahLast edited by Jundo; 06-01-2023, 01:07 AM.Leave a comment:
Leave a comment: