Kinhin

[Guest]

What is the hand posture used during kinhin? Also, if I may ask for metta from you all as I deal with a case of COVID? Thank you!

Gassho

John

SatToday

[Tai Shi]

Just a little. metta for you as I sit tonight and practice Shikantaza; in 7 years I need practice.
Gassho
sat/ lah


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Koushi]

Hi John,

First, much metta to you! I hope your bout with Covid is very short lived and you feel better soon

As far as the hand position during Kinhin, we place our hands in shashu: Put the thumb of your left hand in the middle of the palm and make a fist around it. Place the fist in front of your chest. Cover the fist with your right hand. Keep your elbows away from your body forming a straight line with both forearms.

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mannerszendo21.jpg

For a bit more on Kinhin, Jundo's talk is what I return to when needed: https://youtu.be/UJ3LvIzX0I0?t=784

Feel better soon,

Gassho,
Koushi
STLah

[Jundo]

First, Metta for you, John, and for all with Covid tonight. We have a few members in the Sangha today who are sick or just recovering. As we chant in Metta ...

May you be healthy, and at ease in all your ills.

Koushi is correct on the Mudra for Kinhin. Do have a look through the Zen for Beginners (We are All Always Beginners) Series when you have a chance.

One small footnote on the Mudra: In the Lineages derived from Homeless Kodo Sawaki Roshi (Antaiji, Okumura and Uchiyama Roshis and the Deshimaru Lineages) they tend to walk with a similar Mudra to the Rinzai folks. It is called Isshu, with the hand rotated sideways, the back of the right hand facing the sky rather than facing front. This is unusual in the Japanese Soto world and I am not sure where the custom started (I might ask Muho):



Nishijima Roshi, although heavily influenced by Kodo Sawaki in so many ways, walked Kinhin in the standard Soto way, called Shashu ... Here is a screenshot from the documentary about Nishijima Roshi ...


dlt kinhin.png

Gassho, J

STLah

[Tai Shi]

First, Metta for you, John, and for all with Covid tonight. We have a few members in the Sangha today who are sick or just recovering. As we chant in Metta ...

May you be healthy, and at ease in all your ills.

Koushi is correct on the Mudra for Kinhin. Do have a look through the Zen for Beginners (We are All Always Beginners) Series when you have a chance.

One small footnote on the Mudra: In the Lineages derived from Homeless Kodo Sawaki Roshi (Antaiji, Okumura and Uchiyama Roshis and the Deshimaru Lineages) they tend to walk with a similar Mudra to the Rinzai folks. It is called Isshu, with the hand rotated sideways, the back of the right hand facing the sky rather than facing front. This is unusual in the Japanese Soto world and I am not sure where the custom started (I might ask Muho):



Nishijima Roshi, although heavily influenced by Kodo Sawaki in so many ways, walked Kinhin in the standard Soto way, called Shashu ... Here is a screenshot from the documentary about Nishijima Roshi ...


[ATTACH=CONFIG]7353[/ATTACH]

Gassho, J

STLah

For me I am just beginning to understand that I don’t understand. I have been a member for 7 years and still I don’t know how to sit Shikantaza Or slow my busy mind. Lately there is too much pain and misunderstanding for me to be anything but a beginner.
Gassho
sat/ lah


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Jundo]

For me I am just beginning to understand that I don’t understand. I have been a member for 7 years and still I don’t know how to sit Shikantaza Or slow my busy mind. Lately there is too much pain and misunderstanding for me to be anything but a beginner.
Gassho

If you have medical need, Tai Shi, and it helps, you might even count breaths or use a Mantra during Kinhin. When there is medical need, we do what helps.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Jundo]

... This is unusual in the Japanese Soto world and I am not sure where the custom started (I might ask Muho):

Well, I wrote Rev. Muho, former Abbot of Kodo Sawaki Roshi's Antaiji temple, asking if he knows where the tradition came from, and he wrote back (that's fast service! ) ...

No, I don't know.

So, a mystery it remains ...

Gassho, J

STLah

[Tomás ESP]

Much metta to you John

Gassho, Tomás
Sat

[Heiso]

One small footnote on the Mudra: In the Lineages derived from Homeless Kodo Sawaki Roshi (Antaiji, Okumura and Uchiyama Roshis and the Deshimaru Lineages) they tend to walk with a similar Mudra to the Rinzai folks. It is called Isshu, with the hand rotated sideways, the back of the right hand facing the sky rather than facing front. This is unusual in the Japanese Soto world and I am not sure where the custom started (I might ask Muho):

Aha, this explains something. When I first came to Treeleaf I think I saw this video and followed the instructions, it felt odd but I didn't know why. The first Zen group I sat with were in a Deshimaru lineage so they must have taught me the Isshu mudra - I'm all Shashu now though.

And much metta to you, John.

Gassho,

Heiso

StLah

[DanM]

Much metta to you John. I’ve had it for a week and a half now and despite being triple vaccinated and in good health prior to getting it, it has been a pretty horrible experience. I hope you are not suffering too badly and that you recover quickly.

Gassho,
Dan
Sat/LAH

[Jundo]

The following discussion is for real Kinhin history wonks only, who might possibly have some interest in the history of the hands while walking ... while everyone else can just throw up their hands and walk away

Kinhin is a created or recreated practice, for the original meaning and description from Dogen's time is not so clear, or Dogen's monks may not have walked Kinhin at all in the way we do, until a reformer named Menzan in the 18th century developed the rules for Kinhin from earlier sources. The best English treatment of this topic is Prof. Riggs' paper ...

https://terebess.hu/zen/szoto/Riggs-kinhin-ZenRitual.pdf

So, what is the history of the hand mudra in Kinhin? Menzan based some of his research on the Hsiu-ch’an yao-chueh, which purports to be a T’ang era record (centuries before Dogen's time) of questions and answer sessions with Buddhapalita, an Indian monk. It says:

He asked what do you call the manner of going? He replied: ‘‘Going is kinhin. It is good for it to be a level place, about fourteen or fifteen paces to twenty-two paces. Do kinhin inside this length. When you do kinhin, cover the left hand. Fold the thumb into the palm, and with the remaining four fingers grasp the thumb making a fist. Next cover it with the right hand, grasping the left arm. Then stand straight for a short time and collect the mind and concentrate. (That is, for example, concentrate on the tip of the nose.) Then walk. Go back and forth, neither very fast nor very slow. When you walk, just collect your mind and walk. When you get to the boundary (of the measured area), turn around following the sun (turn your body properly), face where you came from, and stand still for a short time. Then return, walking just like before. When walking keep the eyes open, when stopped the eyes should be closed. ...

In Dogen's Bendoho, Dogen describes only how to walk when leaving one’s meditation seat, not really a practice of walking between Zazen. The word ‘‘kinhin’’ does not appear; rather, slow walk (kanpo) is used. However, the walking described is so slow, that it seems more like Kinhin practice then just walking slowly to leave the room. After getting down from the seat:

Do not let the feet get ahead and the body behind. Move body and feet together. Look directly ahead at the ground one fathom ahead. The measure of the pace is equal to the instep of the foot. Be as though standing in one place, as though not moving forward. It is splendid to move slowly, walking in magnificent ease and quiet. Do not make noise with your slippers and rudely distract the assembly. When you are walking, clasp both hands together, putting them inside the sleeves. Do not let the sleeves dangle down to the right and left near your feet.

Based on the above, and a few other earlier sources, the reformer Menzan wrote something he called the "Kinhinki" (Record of Kinhin), in which he basically created our current Kinhin practice. He wrote:

The way of kinhin that is to be wished for is to clasp both hands in front of the chest [isshu] (it should be just like this), putting them inside the sleeves, and not letting the sleeves fall down near the feet to the right and left. Look directly one fathom ahead (about six or seven feet). When walking properly, use the breath as measure: a half step is taken in the time of one breath (in and out). The measure of the pace is equal to the instep of the foot (the back of the foot). Do not let the feet get ahead and the body behind. Move body and feet together. Do not look around right and left or gaze up and down. Do not move your chest and shoulders. Do not make noise by dragging your slippers. Be as though standing in one place, as though not moving forward. It is splendid to move slowly, walking in magnificent ease and quiet. This is the meaning of what we call slow walking. If you high step or take big strides, if you run quickly or gallop, that is improper and you may be censured.

Menzan also comments:

"The way of kinhin that is to be wished for is to clasp both hands in front of the chest [isshu] (it should be just like this), putting them inside the sleeves, and not letting the sleeves fall down near the feet to the right and left." These eighteen characters are the words of Dogen as seen earlier. The interlineal note, ‘‘You should do it this proper way,’’ means that pressing the palms together, whether bowing, or with hands in isshu, or shashu are all done in the same way with hands at the chest. To have them lower at the waist is not correct. In the Shuo-wen it says, ‘‘Hands coming together at the chest is called isshu.’’ Nowadays, one faction of clerics do shashu with the hands at the waist. People of Nagasaki say that Chinese [prostitutes] walk swinging to right and left so this is not the correct style. ... This [quoting the above Hsiu-ch’an yao-chueh] is the correct way. The truth of this hand position [mudra] is an oral transmission."

Now, Menzan uses the terms "isshu" and "shashu," but this still does not solve the mystery. That is because (I wrote a priest from Japan, Rosan Yoshida of the Missouri Zen Center, about this, and he commented to me) the names seem to have been used interchangeably in the past. Yoshida Roshi notes:

Isshu was called by the common name of Shashu. Shashu was popular in China (among people, then among the nobles), which was introduced into Zen tradition (kept in Rinzai). This name seems to be used in the case of isshu (as in Soto kinhin). Sha of shashu means "crossing (open palms)" and itsu of isshu means "collect (hands, one hand grasping the other fist hand).

In other words, the two terms were pretty much interchangeable. Still no clue as to which way the right hand rests, either facing forward or on top.

In other words ... the "traditional" way to hold the hands in Kinhin, and much about Kinhin itself, is lost in the fog of history and time.

Even so, it is a great and powerful practice, walked as we walk it for many centuries (at least, since Menzan). So, it it a treasure.

Gassho, J

STLah

Sorry to run long and bore the heck out of folks.

[Bion]

The following discussion is for real Kinhin history wonks only, who might possibly have some interest in the history of the hands while walking ... while everyone else can just throw up their hands and walk away

Kinhin is a created or recreated practice, for the original meaning and description from Dogen's time is not so clear, or Dogen's monks may not have walked Kinhin at all in the way we do, until a reformer named Menzan in the 18th century developed the rules for Kinhin from earlier sources. The best English treatment of this topic is Prof. Riggs' paper ...

https://terebess.hu/zen/szoto/Riggs-kinhin-ZenRitual.pdf

So, what is the history of the hand mudra in Kinhin? Menzan based some of his research on the Hsiu-ch’an yao-chueh, which purports to be a T’ang era record (centuries before Dogen's time) of questions and answer sessions with Buddhapalita, an Indian monk. It says:



In Dogen's Bendoho, Dogen describes only how to walk when leaving one’s meditation seat, not really a practice of walking between Zazen. The word ‘‘kinhin’’ does not appear; rather, slow walk (kanpo) is used. However, the walking described is so slow, that it seems more like Kinhin practice then just walking slowly to leave the room. After getting down from the seat:



Based on the above, and a few other earlier sources, the reformer Menzan wrote something he called the "Kinhinki" (Record of Kinhin), in which he basically created our current Kinhin practice. He wrote:



Menzan also comments:



Now, Menzan uses the terms "isshu" and "shashu," but this still does not solve the mystery. That is because (I wrote a priest from Japan, Rosan Yoshida of the Missouri Zen Center, about this, and he commented to me) the names seem to have been used interchangeably in the past. Yoshida Roshi notes:



In other words, the two terms were pretty much interchangeable. Still no clue as to which way the right hand rests, either facing forward or on top.

In other words ... the "traditional" way to hold the hands in Kinhin, and much about Kinhin itself, is lost in the fog of history and time.

Even so, it is a great and powerful practice, walked as we walk it for many centuries (at least, since Menzan). So, it it a treasure.

Gassho, J

STLah

Sorry to run long and bore the heck out of folks.

This was fantastic. And now we know, so it’ll be that much more of an honor to continue this practice when we do it next time!! Thank you for you detective work! [emoji2309] [emoji2309] [emoji2309]

[emoji1374] Sat Today

[Jundo]

By the way, when I sat Sesshin in China a few years ago, at the 6th Ancestors' Temple (home to his famous mummy of Ancestor Hui-neng, still sitting Zazen all these centuries), they do a Rinzai style running Kinhin. First we walk in what, I assume, Menzan would mean with the arms dangling like "chinese prostitutes" , then run.

https://youtu.be/Cpfv22DFfpM

And you get to play "Where's Jundo?", cause I am in there somewhere. In fact, my big cameos come about the 00:23 and 02:50 marks of the film (a Chinese documentary company happened to be filming the sesshin for broadcast) ... where I can be found cruising in the inside "slow lane" of the Kinhin highway, closest to the Buddha statue, not run over.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Bion]

By the way, when I sat Sesshin in China a few years ago, at the 6th Ancestors' Temple (home to his famous mummy, still sitting Zazen all these centuries), they do a Rinzai style running Kinhin. First we walk in what, I assume, Menzan would mean with the arms dangling like "chinese prostitutes" , then run.

https://youtu.be/Cpfv22DFfpM

And you get to play "Where's Jundo?", cause I am in there somewhere. In fact, my big cameos come about the 00:23 and 02:50 marks of the film (a Chinese documentary company happened to be filming the sesshin for broadcast) ... where I can be found cruising in the inside "slow lane" of the Kinhin highway, closest to the Buddha statue, not run over.

Gassho, J

STLah

Ha! Saw you [emoji1] that is amazing. Also, I WISH the robes would be mandatory for us. For real [emoji1787]
Also, sesshin at Hui Neng’s temple? Amazing

[emoji1374] Sat Today

[Ippo]

And you get to play "Where's Jundo?", cause I am in there somewhere. In fact, my big cameos come about the 00:23 and 02:50 marks of the film (a Chinese documentary company happened to be filming the sesshin for broadcast) ... where I can be found cruising in the inside "slow lane" of the Kinhin highway, closest to the Buddha statue, not run over.

Gassho, J

STLah

Jundo spotted!!

How many points for that??

Gassho,

Ippo

SatToday