Zen Stoicism

[Tom A.]

Is it true that two of Nishijima Roshi’s common sayings were “follow the circumstances”(ie work with what you have and where you are within reality, no wilfull non-acceptance of reality, or wishful thinking) and “there are no outcomes”(ie only worry about what you can control, only worry about the process not the product, mainly concern yourself with what is inside you, your character and attitude)? If so, these are very wise sayings and get to the heart of most of our day to day problems…

Gassho,
Tom
Sat/Lah

[Kyotai]

“If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment.”
― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

I have found Stoicism to be profoundly practical and helpful in my daily life.

Gassho, Kyotai
ST

[Jundo]

Is it true that two of Nishijima Roshi’s common sayings were “follow the circumstances”(ie work with what you have and where you are within reality, no wilfull non-acceptance of reality, or wishful thinking) and “there are no outcomes”(ie only worry about what you can control, only worry about the process not the product, mainly concern yourself with what is inside you, your character and attitude)? If so, these are very wise sayings and get to the heart of most of our day to day problems…

Gassho,
Tom
Sat/Lah

Hmmm. Well, I have found that Nishijima Roshi used the expression "follow the circumstances" in connection with the Kalpa Fire Koan in Nishijima Roshi's translation of Master Dogen's Shinji Shobogenzo, and he interprets it beautifully as flowing with circumstances, i.e., "[If our] plans go awry or we may discover that we are trying to change something that cannot be changed. The Buddhist attitude is to accept and deal with the reality of the situation, even if that one is not one we would have chosen." He then tells the story of the fellow chased off a cliff, hanging with tigers below, who tastes the lovely strawberry.

It is a lovely teaching, but there is perhaps a more common interpretation of the Koan that there is "something" about reality ... call it "Buddha" or "Emptiness" or whatever ... that would disappear if all the matter of the universe someday disappeared (because all that matter of the universe is just this too in other quise), yet would not disappear because it is so much more than just the matter of the universe.

The Japanese and Chinese in the Koan can really be interpreted either way, but more the latter I think:

「いんもならば他に随い去るや？」。

隋云く、

「他に随い去る」。

(I found that Brad Warner said somewhere that Nishijima's interpretation is closer to the Japanese, but I don't see so. It is a bit ambiguous, and maybe can mean either, but is usually taken for the latter interpretation which seems to fit better. Both lovely teachings though.)

I don't know "there are no outcomes." Where did you hear that one?

But there is certainly a stoic attitude toward life in Zen, accepting and embracing and flowing with what is. On the other hand, that is no excuse to be passive, totally ignoring the state of the world and just letting things happen. Be informed, be active, even as the heart is calm.

(sorry to run long)

Gassho, J

STLah

[Tom A.]

Hmmm. Well, I have found that Nishijima Roshi used the expression "follow the circumstances" in connection with the Kalpa Fire Koan in Nishijima Roshi's translation of Master Dogen's Shinji Shobogenzo, and he interprets it beautifully as flowing with circumstances, i.e., "[If our] plans go awry or we may discover that we are trying to change something that cannot be changed. The Buddhist attitude is to accept and deal with the reality of the situation, even if that one is not one we would have chosen." He then tells the story of the fellow chased off a cliff, hanging with tigers below, who tastes the lovely strawberry.

It is a lovely teaching, but there is perhaps a more common interpretation of the Koan that there is "something" about reality ... call it "Buddha" or "Emptiness" or whatever ... that would disappear if all the matter of the universe somedays disappeared (because all that matter of the universe is just this too in other quise), yet would not disappear because it is so much more than just the matter of the universe.

The Japanese and Chinese in the Koan can really be interpreted either way, but more the latter I think:



(I found that Brad Warner said somewhere that Nishijima's interpretation is closer to the Japanese, but I don't see so. It is a bit ambiguous, and maybe can mean either, but is usually taken for the latter interpretation which seems to fit better. Both lovely teachings though.)

I don't know "there are no outcomes." Where did you hear that one?

But there is certainly a stoic attitude toward life in Zen, accepting and embracing and flowing with what is. On the other hand, that is no excuse to be passive, totally ignoring the state of the world and just letting things happen. Be informed, be active, even as the heart is calm.

(sorry to run long)

Gassho, J

STLah

A little birdie told me wrong. I thought I read it in one of his books a while back about a Nagarjuna writing that I forgot the name of (the book really had nothing to do with the Nagarjuna writing btw).

Gassho,
Tom

Sat/Lah

[Tom A.]

Kyotai- Me too. I am in the process of reading the greats: Uchiyama, Okumura, Sawaki, Cohen etc… and writing down what I think is particularly Stoic. This concept is particularly concordant with zen: https://medium.com/stoicism-philosop...d-379be0252940

Asterisk.
In Bendowa Dogen says something like “one must completely and wholly follow the way.” I take that to mean “stick to Soto Zen and go deep into Soto Zen, don’t stretch yourself with too much non Soto philosophy and thought.”

Gassho,
Tom
SAT/Lah

[Tom A.]

This one’s very Zenny:

“I have to die. If it is now, well then I die now; if later, then now I will take my lunch, since the hour for lunch has arrived – and dying I will tend to later.”- Epictetus

Gassho,
Tom
SAT/Lah

[Kokuu]

Tom,

I think that stoicism is embodied in the third of the six Mahayana perfections, kṣānti (patience or forbearance).

You might also be interested in the story of Sundarī in the Udāna (https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipi...4.08.than.html), in which the Buddha's early sangha is reviled after being suspected of murdering a woman from another spiritual community. Shakyamuni tells his monks to be patient and endure the insults as the most important thing is knowing that they are innocent.

They stab with their words
— people unrestrained —
as they do, with arrows,
a tusker gone into battle.
Hearing abusive words spoken,
one should endure them:
a monk with unbothered mind.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Tom A.]

Tom,

I think that stoicism is embodied in the third of the six Mahayana perfections, kṣānti (patience or forbearance).

You might also be interested in the story of Sundarī in the Udāna (https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipi...4.08.than.html), in which the Buddha's early sangha is reviled after being suspected of murdering a woman from another spiritual community. Shakyamuni tells his monks to be patient and endure the insults as the most important thing is knowing that they are innocent.

They stab with their words
— people unrestrained —
as they do, with arrows,
a tusker gone into battle.
Hearing abusive words spoken,
one should endure them:
a monk with unbothered mind.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

I’m mainly talking about uppercase Stoicism, the philosophy of Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius, and Seneca (the big three). That being said, the Stoics thought to bear and forbear aka endure and renounce were the greatest virtues because nothing matters if you give up the fight (don’t endure) or don’t renounce vice in favor of virtue.

Gassho,
Tom
Sat/Lah

[Jishin]

“If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment.”
― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

I have found Stoicism to be profoundly practical and helpful in my daily life.

Gassho, Kyotai
ST

[emoji106]

[Kyotai]

Zen Stoicism

Kyotai- Me too. I am in the process of reading the greats: Uchiyama, Okumura, Sawaki, Cohen etc… and writing down what I think is particularly Stoic. This concept is particularly concordant with zen: https://medium.com/stoicism-philosop...d-379be0252940

Asterisk.
In Bendowa Dogen says something like “one must completely and wholly follow the way.” I take that to mean “stick to Soto Zen and go deep into Soto Zen, don’t stretch yourself with too much non Soto philosophy and thought.”

Gassho,
Tom
SAT/Lah

I highly highly recommend “how to think like a Roman emperor,” by Donald Robertson and of course the greats..

Meditations, by Marcus Aurelius.
Letters from a Stoic, by Seneca
among others

Gassho Kyotai
ST


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[Risho]

Kyotai- Me too. I am in the process of reading the greats: Uchiyama, Okumura, Sawaki, Cohen etc… and writing down what I think is particularly Stoic. This concept is particularly concordant with zen: https://medium.com/stoicism-philosop...d-379be0252940

You sycophant!!!! hahahah just kidding

I love Stoicism - it seems like a practical philosophy -> Kyotai - that is a really good book; anything by Ryan Holiday as well (e.g. The Obstacle is the Way).

I think it's natural that Stoicism shares many ideas with Zen; there is inevitable bleedover because truth is truth and is not under the purview of any "ism".

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Tom A.]

You sycophant!!!! hahahah just kidding

I love Stoicism - it seems like a practical philosophy -> Kyotai - that is a really good book; anything by Ryan Holiday as well (e.g. The Obstacle is the Way).

I think it's natural that Stoicism shares many ideas with Zen; there is inevitable bleedover because truth is truth and is not under the purview of any "ism".

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

Caught me!
And good point about truth.



Gassho,
Tom
Sat/Lah

[Jundo]

This one’s very Zenny:

“I have to die. If it is now, well then I die now; if later, then now I will take my lunch, since the hour for lunch has arrived – and dying I will tend to later.”- Epictetus

Gassho,
Tom
SAT/Lah

This reminds me of Dogen's words in Shoji ...

If you understand that life and death are themselves Nirvana, there is no need for avoiding life and death or seeking Nirvana. Then, for the first time, you will have the possibility to free yourself from life and death.

...

When it is called life, there is nothing but life. When it is called death, there is nothing but death. If life comes, this is life. If death comes, this is death. There is no reason to try to escape from it, and their is no reason to cling to it either.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Suuko]

This reminds me of Dogen's words in Shoji ...



Gassho, J

STLah

We let life come to us the way it is and accept it fully. We don't try to make the moment be something else. Is that right?

Gassho,
Sat today,
Geerish.

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[Jundo]

We let life come to us the way it is and accept it fully. We don't try to make the moment be something else. Is that right?

Gassho,
Sat today,
Geerish.

Sent from my PAR-LX1M using Tapatalk

Ah, one of the wonders of Zen is that it is not only encountering life one way. Thus, we accept life as it is fully, and drop all need to make things some other way ...

... and yet, to live in life, we do not accept all of life fully (the war, the disease, the other things in our life that need fixing), and we can want and work to make them some other way ...

... all while ALSO knowing that there are no "things," as all washes away into Emptiness.

One can encounter life simultaneously, know all ways at once. Thus, nothing to change, all just as it is ... yet so many things we should try to change.

It is something like accepting dirt as beautiful dirt, each grain holding the universe within ... yet it is not beautiful, so clean it up ... yet, what "dirt?"

Gassho, J

STLah