Did Dogen invent Shikantaza?

[Koutoku]

Hi Judy,

It is now generally agreed by historians that this is not really an historical fact, but more a legend which developed to justify the folks (all modern Zen schools) who derive their Lineage from the 6th Patriarch, Hui-Neng (who, by the way, is not a fully historical figure, although there was someone who lived by that name). In fact, both "North" and "South," and all the Zen schools today, have elements that are BOTH sudden and gradual in enlightenment and practice (e.g., that one may suddenly realize wisdom in a moment or many moments, but must slowly refine this fact over time).

Even though not quite "historical fact," the story and symbolism of Hui-Neng are very important to us.

https://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/HistoricalZen/Legends_in_Chan.html

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Thank you Jundo! Apparently I know only the Chen's side of the story in Mandarin.

Gassho,
Judy Sat

[Jundo]

Chan School split into Southern and Northern schools when the 5th patriarch passed down his robe to the 6th patriarch and asked him to traveled down south to avoid persecution. The 6th patriarch in general view promoted Sudden Enlightenment while the other disciple of the 5th patriarch went North preached gradual enlightenment. Any misunderstanding on my part please make correction...

Gassho,
Judy
SAT

Hi Judy,

It is now generally agreed by historians that this is not really an historical fact, but more a legend which developed to justify the folks (all modern Zen schools) who derive their Lineage from the 6th Patriarch, Hui-Neng (who, by the way, is not a fully historical figure, although there was someone who lived by that name). In fact, both "North" and "South," and all the Zen schools today, have elements that are BOTH sudden and gradual in enlightenment and practice (e.g., that one may suddenly realize wisdom in a moment or many moments, but must slowly refine this fact over time).

Even though not quite "historical fact," the story and symbolism of Hui-Neng are very important to us.

https://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/HistoricalZen/Legends_in_Chan.html

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Koutoku]

I was reading a book on the history of zen and I came across a chapter that explains how zen divided between the northern and the southern school. One placed more importance on gradual training and the other said that enlightenment is instantaneous and does not depen upon meditation practice. The book is in Spanish tho. I am sure that other members can offer much material on the matter. Also, I am terrible at offering quotations, but I can say that from my personal perspective, Shikantaza is just a "formal" way to do Zazen. The key is to practice Zazen in everything. And if you sit in formal meditation for a while, you can tell the difference that it makes in comparison with just being mindful without actually sitting.

In terms of gaining understanding from the old geezers, what better geezer than Buddha himself, who heavily emphasized sitting meditation.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat

Sorry for going over 3 sentences.

Chan School split into Southern and Northern schools when the 5th patriarch passed down his robe to the 6th patriarch and asked him to traveled down south to avoid persecution. The 6th patriarch in general view promoted Sudden Enlightenment while the other disciple of the 5th patriarch went North preached gradual enlightenment. Any misunderstanding on my part please make correction...

Gassho,
Judy
SAT

[Jundo]

Hello everyone!

I find that one can eventually trace basic "shikantaza" teachings even back to good ol' Shakyamuni himself, if you really read through the pali tipitaka, there are very many cases where one can see how much stress is made of "SITTING DOWN CROSSLEGGED" (निसीदति, पल्लङ्कं आभुजित्वा) with "BODY ERECT" (उजुं कायं पणिधाय), "JUST OBSERVING", while "SIMPLY KNOWING" (पजानाति) and "RELAXING/LETTING GO" (पस्स even of "NIBBANA" itself!), to finally, being RID OF DESIRE AND ADVERSION FOR ANYTHING IN THE WORLD (विनेय्य लोके अभिज्झा दोमनस्सं) and MAKE AN END TO SUFFERING. (Check for sure, amongst so many other early texts, the 'twin' ANAPANASATI & SATIPATTHANA SUTTA -two of the most, if not THE most, detailed texts on sitting meditation we are left with among the Buddha's original teachings- as well as the MULAPARIYAYA SUTTA. Respectively suttas number 118, 10 and 1 of the Majjhimanikaya collection of discourses.)
Never forget, also, that he (Buddha) completely woke up (realized enlightenment), only when he let go of the "way-seeking mind" itself (which included a good amount of kinds of different meditation techniques existing at his time in india, which he personally tried, but felt they failed as to make an end to suffering) and sat under the bodhi-tree with the very same actitude he had once when only a child, when he ran away from the crowd attending a festival and sat under a rose-apple tree, finally free of anxieties and ideas of achievement, but open minded (and hearted).

But I will leave you with just these two much interesting (to me) quotations from those very early suttas as well...


1) फस्सद्वयं सुखदुक्खे उपेक्खे
अनानुरुद्धो अविरुद्ध केनचि लोके
Look with equanimity at the duality of painful and pleasant contacts, without favoring or opposing anything. (Samyutta Nikaya 35,95)

Doesn't this sound shockingly similar to the first two verses of the Hin Hsin Ming? Which is shockingly similar, in its turn, to the "basic shikantaza tachings", for that matter...

And...:

2) तस्स सम्मा विमुत्तस्स
सन्तचित्तस्स भिक्खुनो
कतस्स पटिचयो नत्थि
करणीयं न विज्जति
For that one, rightly freed,
a practitioner with peaceful mind,
there’s nothing to be improved,
and nothing more to do. (Anguttara Nikaya 6.55)


Reminds me a bit of "mushotoku", doesn't it?

Anyway, as I already stated, there are sooooo many exemples of "shikantaza" teachings in the first pali suttas!!! One just has to go and read with open mind and heart...and experience in practice also...that is fundamental!
I think...

Gassho.
Hokin.
ST.

Oh, thank you Hokin, this is an important post. In an earlier discussion with A.J., I also pointed out some scholars' descriptions of "Jhana of the Suttas" vs. "Jhana in the later commentaries":

By the way, Andrew, you might be interested in the history and examination of Jhana and samadhi by Richard Shankman. He makes the argument that the Fourth Jhana, originally the highest, is actually a putting aside of blissful and highly concentrated states in favor of equanimious sitting with a sense of wholeness, at least as described in the Suttas before the Vishudimagga and other commentaries (perhaps under the influence of Bhraman/Hindu practices which the Buddha originally may have rejected) turned the meaning of Jhana to some kinds of deeply concentrated and blissful, even other worldly states:

"Just Sitting" Shikantaza which we practice at Treeleaf is placed in historical context perhaps closer to the intent of the older Pali Suttas for "open, spacious, aware samadhi which thus brings insight" than other later forms.

More here:

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?18008-Rapturous-Samadhi&p=266905&viewfull=1#post266905

and

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?18008-Rapturous-Samadhi&p=266908&viewfull=1#post266908

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

PS - Hokin, I am really impressed with how you got all that fancy writing in our Forum! I didn't know you could read Hebrew!

[Jundo]

I moved most of the discussion on teachers and students to its own thread here:

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?18146-%28Non%29Split-Thread-Teachers-Students-in-the-Modern-Western-Sangha

[Hokin]

Hello everyone!

I find that one can eventually trace basic "shikantaza" teachings even back to good ol' Shakyamuni himself, if you really read through the pali tipitaka, there are very many cases where one can see how much stress is made of "SITTING DOWN CROSSLEGGED" (निसीदति, पल्लङ्कं आभुजित्वा) with "BODY ERECT" (उजुं कायं पणिधाय), "JUST OBSERVING", while "SIMPLY KNOWING" (पजानाति) and "RELAXING/LETTING GO" (पस्स even of "NIBBANA" itself!), to finally, being RID OF DESIRE AND ADVERSION FOR ANYTHING IN THE WORLD (विनेय्य लोके अभिज्झा दोमनस्सं) and MAKE AN END TO SUFFERING. (Check for sure, amongst so many other early texts, the 'twin' ANAPANASATI & SATIPATTHANA SUTTA -two of the most, if not THE most, detailed texts on sitting meditation we are left with among the Buddha's original teachings- as well as the MULAPARIYAYA SUTTA. Respectively suttas number 118, 10 and 1 of the Majjhimanikaya collection of discourses.)
Never forget, also, that he (Buddha) completely woke up (realized enlightenment), only when he let go of the "way-seeking mind" itself (which included a good amount of kinds of different meditation techniques existing at his time in india, which he personally tried, but felt they failed as to make an end to suffering) and sat under the bodhi-tree with the very same actitude he had once when only a child, when he ran away from the crowd attending a festival and sat under a rose-apple tree, finally free of anxieties and ideas of achievement, but open minded (and hearted).

But I will leave you with just these two much interesting (to me) quotations from those very early suttas as well...


1) फस्सद्वयं सुखदुक्खे उपेक्खे
अनानुरुद्धो अविरुद्ध केनचि लोके
Look with equanimity at the duality of painful and pleasant contacts, without favoring or opposing anything. (Samyutta Nikaya 35,95)

Doesn't this sound shockingly similar to the first two verses of the Hin Hsin Ming? Which is shockingly similar, in its turn, to the "basic shikantaza tachings", for that matter...

And...:

2) तस्स सम्मा विमुत्तस्स
सन्तचित्तस्स भिक्खुनो
कतस्स पटिचयो नत्थि
करणीयं न विज्जति
For that one, rightly freed,
a practitioner with peaceful mind,
there’s nothing to be improved,
and nothing more to do. (Anguttara Nikaya 6.55)


Reminds me a bit of "mushotoku", doesn't it?

Anyway, as I already stated, there are sooooo many exemples of "shikantaza" teachings in the first pali suttas!!! One just has to go and read with open mind and heart...and experience in practice also...that is fundamental!
I think...

Gassho.
Hokin.
ST.

[Michael Joseph]

I want to thank all who have participated in this discussion regardless of intention or expression. While I do not condone words that hurt or offend, I have learned much about Zen history and Zen practice--and practitioners--through this discussion. You have all made me grateful to be a part of this sangha.

Gassho,

Hobun

ST

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

[Kyoshin]

Thanks Kyoshin but it's all good. As you know language is powerful as well as often loaded. Another discussion for after Ango might be about what role Class has on Buddhism in the West, that and why Buddhism in the West is so white.
Chopping wood, carrying water for me this Ango.
Gassho
Onka
Sat

My apologies to everyone, I should have brought up my concern privately. I will delete the comment.

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

[Ryumon]

I just sent a message to Jundo this morning explaining exactly the same story. Some people on the zen reddit subforum are trying to prove that Dogen never went to China, was never given Dharma transmission by Rujing and that Shikantaza is the same as "prayer-meditation". Which is funny, because there are actual scientific studies proving the benefits of zazen. Before joining TreeLeaf I read their threads for some months, but the people are incredibly toxic to each other and everyone is trying to play zen master. And some members are clearly trying to create a cult around only reading early zen masters. Plus, they also claim that zen is not connected to Buddhism in the first place...

I don't think that we need scientific studies that prove the benefits of zazen. These studies are looking at physical and mental changes, which may arise with any meditative practice, but that's not the goal of shikantaza.

Taking seriously any conspiracy theory on Reddit is a path to disaster. There are people there who have nothing better to do than to argue with others.

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

[Ryumon]

I listed considerations my question was based on but I did not make any claims about what the Zen tradition was in the early days for certain. The fact that you need to start with internet name-calling as a Zen priest demonstrates that you don't have room for discussion. No wonder you limit everyone to three sentences and then you go beyond that more than anyone. Between that and your tendency to shut people down you seem to have some kind of control problem. No wonder you started all that drama with the Hardcore Zen people a decade ago when Brad Warner wouldn't meet with you as you requested and then you made allegations that some other Zen priest punched you in the face. It's unfortunate that it's the people with the control issues who are motivated to get things like this going. I'm sure I'm not the first dissatisfied customer but your thread archives only go back as far as 2020. Good riddance. I won't be back.

Oh my, what has been going on here? Newbie troll, it looks like.

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

[Bion]

I am mildly surprised by the turn this conversation has taken and by the bickering happening.

[emoji1374] SatToday

[Onka]

I'm sorry, but this comment just doesn't sit right with me. Delete the b-word, sure. But if you had a problem with Onka saying Jundo has blind spots, why not say it in the first place, as you should have? Did you get annoyed at her attempt to explain her use of the b-word, and then decide to look for further reasons for public chastisement? I ask because it very much looks like that's what happened, and I find that troubling in the extreme.

I can't imagine that any offense or disrespect was intended by saying that Jundo has blind spots. An innocuous utterance, it seems to me. It's true of everyone, and in context it made sense to say, as she was essentially noting that nobody is perfect, least of all herself. Im flabbergasted that that particular statement warrants chastisement at all, much less a public one.

Apologies for the long post but I'm shocked and perturbed by this turn of events.

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah


Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

Thanks Kyoshin but it's all good. As you know language is powerful as well as often loaded. Another discussion for after Ango might be about what role Class has on Buddhism in the West, that and why Buddhism in the West is so white.
Chopping wood, carrying water for me this Ango.
Gassho
Onka
Sat

[Inshin]

I'm sorry, but this comment just doesn't sit right with me. Delete the b-word, sure. But if you had a problem with Onka saying Jundo has blind spots, why not say it in the first place, as you should have? Did you get annoyed at her attempt to explain her use of the b-word, and then decide to look for further reasons for public chastisement? I ask because it very much looks like that's what happened, and I find that troubling in the extreme.

I can't imagine that any offense or disrespect was intended by saying that Jundo has blind spots. An innocuous utterance, it seems to me. It's true of everyone, and in context it made sense to say, as she was essentially noting that nobody is perfect, least of all herself. Im flabbergasted that that particular statement warrants chastisement at all, much less a public one.

Apologies for the long post but I'm shocked and perturbed by this turn of events.

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah


Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

In the last two days I started to understand the meaning of Sangha as a practice. Very valuable lessons since yesterday from all of you.

Gassho
Sat

[Inshin]

Another small sign of the "roots" of Shikantaza is in the Xin Xin Ming (Inscription on Trust in Mind), a classic chant of the Soto school traditionally attributed to the 3rd Ancestor in Chiina, Sengcan. In fact, it is probably not by Sengcan, but scholars still believe that it is from early on in the Tang Dynasty, maybe 7th-8th century C.E. It has been celebrated in the Zen Lineages for over 1000 years. It certainly expresses the equanimity, non-choosing, neither running toward and entangling with the world nor running away that Master Dogen conveys in Fukanzazengi ...

In Fukanzazengi, he writes:



Some of those lines are from the Xin Xin Ming directly ...



Now, if that is not precisely the attitude of sitting in the equanimity of Shikantaza, neither running from the world nor toward it, non-gaining, not discriminating, free of opinions, without aversions [dislikes] and attractions [likes], dropping thoughts, the self/other divide softening or dropping away, nothing felt lacking or in excess, timeless amid time ...

I wish Andrew were still here, I would have loved (beyond loves and hates and all debates, of course! ) to hear is impression. Could he doubt that the heart of Just Sitting is not here?

(Sorry, ran a bit long).

Gassho, J

STLah

"Consider motion in stillness
and stillness in motion;
both movement and stillness disappear." - Shikantanza
It's impossible to give an apple and describe its taste to someone who doesn't want to taste it.

Gassho
Sat

[Jundo]

DELETED

Commented deleted for harsh language. We did have complaints, and I concur that it was not appropriate here.

Gassho, Jundo