How much of dharma is upaya?

[Kokuu]

To me it is just trying to understand and I find I learn more if I'm not contented automatically with the first answer on its face. Question and answer time doesn't cultivate understanding but prying for why the answer is the answer is what cultivates understanding.

Andrew,

In Zen we learn to be comfortable with 'not knowing' and to not always give in to the need for the mind to know everything which is often about a desire for control.

Treeleaf, and Zen, is not anti-intellectual, but I have personally found that letting go of the need for answers brings a different, and deeper, kind of understanding that goes beyond words.

Of course there are times to ask questions but do not be surprised that often you may be asked to put those questions down.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Jundo]

...
And I'll say this, if the universe did turn out to be a simulation it might explain some of the weirdness about quantum mechanics and why observing things at the sub atomic level causes them to adhere to a specific state (where as when unobserved they exist in a state of probability).

Now, ya know, that is actually a proposition that has some serious physicists, philosophers and thinkers behind it as an actual possibility. Have a listen:

Neil deGrasse Tyson

https://youtu.be/pmcrG7ZZKUc

Elon Musk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0KHiiTtt4w&fbclid=IwAR3Pr1wl7sTv1SKoBQLHGRXFwv0xtvCWH0FgOeoLsAAfjHyptyy8oAauVLU

The most expert on the topic of all, Oxford technology philosopher Nick Bostrom

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GV1B33rjh5A&fbclid=IwAR3kVdbw-Yl9ohiyIbQwtMbgY87nHEMtKy9tUiyG-DZWyz90UkT4smGPBqE

Quite a few others.

Gassho, J

STLah

[gaurdianaq]

I would need evidence that the world is a simulation. Some supposed theories don't validate an idea till there is a positive reason to believe it. People thought the world was flat because that was all they could see with the evidence they had at hand and people changed their minds when evidence came to the contrary, therefore I do not believe we are in a quandary of uncertainty about everything.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

I wasn't arguing that a theory alone does validate an idea. My point was that the earth not being flat would have been viewed very similarly to the simulation theory and that we shouldn't be too attached to what might seem like common sense to us (that doesn't mean we should reject something either for being common sense). Another thing that many people consider to be common sense is the idea of an individual self, but that doesn't necessarily mean there is one. And it's only very recently that science is starting to consider the idea that a "self" might be a form of illusion created by the left side of our brain. (The book No Self, No Problem was really interesting and talks about that)

And I'll say this, if the universe did turn out to be a simulation it might explain some of the weirdness about quantum mechanics and why observing things at the sub atomic level causes them to adhere to a specific state (where as when unobserved they exist in a state of probability).


Evan,
Sat today

[A.J.]

I will say this, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to look deep into these sorts of things, but on the other side of things. I believe these sorts of questions will never have a truly satisfying answer either. Even the things we consider to be "common sense realities" can come into question if looked at in the right way. At one point in time, it was considered common sense that the earth was flat and that there was a finite distance beyond the planet that existed. To consider otherwise was to be considered delusional. And there are some scientific theories that suggest our own universe might be a simulation!


Evan,
Sat today

I would need evidence that the world is a simulation. Some supposed theories don't validate an idea till there is a positive reason to believe it. People thought the world was flat because that was all they could see with the evidence they had at hand and people changed their minds when evidence came to the contrary, therefore I do not believe we are in a quandary of uncertainty about everything.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

I enjoy cogent discussion and questioning too, as you can tell. Yet there comes a time when we put it aside, for it seems like the "baskets and snares" of intellectual tangles are getting in the way of savoring the apple, spying the moon, practicing Zen. It is hard to tell where that line is, but I feel that we should be more aware of that around our discussions: Oh, how the moonlight shines upon the beautiful apple!

Gassho, J

STLah

I don't consider defining terms, parsing distinctions in what is the case, or evaluating historical practices and ideas intellectual snares. To me it is just trying to understand and I find I learn more if I'm not contented automatically with the first answer on its face. Question and answer time doesn't cultivate understanding but prying for why the answer is the answer is what cultivates understanding.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

Please sit each day before you come here to chat, chat for awhile and address a question or two briefly ... then we sweep the floor, chop some wood, savor the apple, sit Zazen again.

Many aspects of zen can be understood by simplifying the debate and ideas, yet we do not want to be ill informed and unquestioning either. The middle way please.

Gassho, J

STLah

I sit for forty to an hour each day and always well before any kind of internet usage. If you have a suggested practice other than that I'd consider it.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[gaurdianaq]

I will say this, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to look deep into these sorts of things, but on the other side of things. I believe these sorts of questions will never have a truly satisfying answer either. Even the things we consider to be "common sense realities" can come into question if looked at in the right way. At one point in time, it was considered common sense that the earth was flat and that there was a finite distance beyond the planet that existed. To consider otherwise was to be considered delusional. And there are some scientific theories that suggest our own universe might be a simulation!


Evan,
Sat today

[Jundo]

On the practicing side I sit when I sit, think when I think and write when I write.

Please sit each day before you come here to chat, chat for awhile and address a question or two briefly ... then we sweep the floor, chop some wood, savor the apple, sit Zazen again.

Many aspects of zen can be understood by simplifying the debate and ideas, yet we do not want to be ill informed and unquestioning either. The middle way please.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

I'm not interested in debate but I am interested in cogent discussion that may involve interacting with different points of view with the goal of getting a better understanding of whatever topic is at hand.

I enjoy cogent discussion and questioning too, as you can tell. Yet there comes a time when we put it aside, for it seems like the "baskets and snares" of intellectual tangles are getting in the way of savoring the apple, spying the moon, practicing Zen. It is hard to tell where that line is, but I feel that we should be more aware of that around our discussions: Oh, how the moonlight shines upon the beautiful apple!

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

Hi AJ
I'm a new student of Zen Buddhism AND a new practitioner of the Buddha Dharma.
I read your posts with interest and genuine intellectual wonder, mainly because I am a new student. As a practioner I want to yell "READ LESS. SIT MORE" because my own practice is ridiculously simple but the irony would be as thick as Turkish coffee considering my verbosity.
I ask you respectfully whether you see yourself as a student of Buddhism or a practitioner? Or like I'm aiming to be, both?
I'm hoping to evolve into both myself as the years go by but until I can interact with you intellectually on Zen and Buddhism may I ask as a new practitioner to take note of Jundo's softly softly approach to offering advice.
Gassho
Onka
Sat today

I have a fairly regular meditation practice, when I lived near Sanghas I often attended several times a week for several years and I have been reading Buddhist material (mostly going back to ancient sources in translation) for several years, so all in all I would have to say practitioner and student.

On the student side I have developed a build up of questions and issues with various aspects of Buddhism for which I am looking for points of view.
On the practicing side I sit when I sit, think when I think and write when I write.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Onka]

Hi AJ
I'm a new student of Zen Buddhism AND a new practitioner of the Buddha Dharma.
I read your posts with interest and genuine intellectual wonder, mainly because I am a new student. As a practioner I want to yell "READ LESS. SIT MORE" because my own practice is ridiculously simple but the irony would be as thick as Turkish coffee considering my verbosity.
I ask you respectfully whether you see yourself as a student of Buddhism or a practitioner? Or like I'm aiming to be, both?
I'm hoping to evolve into both myself as the years go by but until I can interact with you intellectually on Zen and Buddhism may I ask as a new practitioner to take note of Jundo's softly softly approach to offering advice.
Gassho
Onka
Sat today

[A.J.]

I've also found old Zen writings that were more argumentative and dogmatic than I would ever dream of being.

And philosophy is but the love of wisdom i.e. Plato's Cave, not to be confused with sophism.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

A.J., maybe you are a little too tied up in debate and intellectualizing for Zen practice?

It is a fine line between intellectual curiosity and discussion, and tangles of philosophizing which actually stand in the way of clarity, so be cautious!

Hard to explain, but our way is a bit like eating an apple, savoring an apple, perhaps lightly asking and discussing about the source of the apple and commenting on how sweet it is ... vs. debating so much "what is an apple" "why is an apple not an orange" "is the apple empty or is there an actual apple" and "are apples upaya" that one fails to be still, quiet and actually taste the apple.

Thus, Middle Way, ask fewer questions and savor the sweet apple more, don't fall into an intellectual trap!

(a sentence past 3)

Gassho, J

STLah

In the past I've thoroughly enjoyed Zen practice in temples and studying Zen material but I don't consider anything to be the be-all, end-all to stop all questions and thoughts.

Zen is part of a received tradition with a long history and libraries worth of texts so although I happily accept that ultimate reality is beyond words and letters I also accept that we are people of words and letters.

I'm not interested in debate but I am interested in cogent discussion that may involve interacting with different points of view with the goal of getting a better understanding of whatever topic is at hand.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

The reasons you gave for sunyata along with my own personal investigations are why I'm inclined to think that the word (in itself only an idea) points to something real about reality.

I just mention the distinction between spiritual experiences and common sense realities because while the one requires special engagements, (involvement in a practice or some such) the other is obvious in a way that doesn't require anything special.

Cool picture... I'm thinking of floors and walls made of dry ice where the naked damned have no where to sit.


Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

A.J., maybe you are a little too tied up in debate and intellectualizing for Zen practice?

It is a fine line between intellectual curiosity and discussion, and tangles of philosophizing which actually stand in the way of clarity, so be cautious!

Hard to explain, but our way is a bit like eating an apple, savoring an apple, perhaps lightly asking and discussing about the source of the apple and commenting on how sweet it is ... vs. debating so much "what is an apple?" "why is an apple not an orange?" "is the apple empty or is there an actual apple?" "which is the original apple, and which apple is truer than other apples?" and "are apples upaya?" that one fails to be still, quiet and actually taste the apple.

Thus, Middle Way, ask fewer questions and savor the sweet apple more, don't fall into an intellectual trap!

(a sentence past 3)

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

Much more likely Indian Shavism ... Brahman/Hindu transgressive beliefs in the religion of Lord Shiva ... which flooded into Buddhism in the early centuries C.E.

http://www.sutrajournal.com/the-tantric-age-a-comparison-of-shaiva-and-buddhist-tantra-by-christopher-wallis

It was then wrapped in Buddhist clothes and, yes, I am sure that they could interpret some Mahayana literature in extreme ways to find that common ground.

Not my cup of tea (or bile), and I don't care much for it as a practice, but maybe it works for someone as their Upaya.

Gassho, J

STLah

Coming back to peaches and poo...
that might be a great way to go beyond craving and aversion... joking...
but that might have actually been their idea.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah