How much of dharma is upaya?

[A.J.]

In your words above, perhaps you are being too analytical.

Gassho, J

STLah

In my words above it is clear I don't think there is such a thing unless it impedes your poetic appreciation of life. Everything in its place.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

I wouldn't want to judge if a Buddhist text, or any text for that matter, was too analytical because I'm not inclined to think there is such a thing unless you can't do anything else. The day you can't meditate, or enjoy the simple taste of food, or relish a poem, or lose yourself in embrace, or see the forest along with the trees, on that day you have become too analytical. Other than that when you sip coffee you sip coffee even though it is different from eating mashed potatoes and when you are thinking about the various inter-related issues in the world of Buddhist (and Zen) thought, then that is simply what you are doing at that time even though it is different from sitting unattached to concepts receiving the whole world while simultaneously letting it go.

In your words above, perhaps you are being too analytical.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

Yes, but how often they were too analytical, caught in their own "angels on the head of a pin" tangles and imaginings ... rather than feeling the sting of the pin prick.



There is more than one way to bake a strawberry cheesecake, some delicious and some just tasteless or terrible (although different tongues may disagree). Personally, I believe that Shikantaza ... learning to just be without the endless "more more more", sitting without running always for what's next, learning to flow so as not to be flooded with aversions and attractions, being satisfied even amid this often dissatisfying life ... learning to seek more and not seek more AT ONCE TOGETHER, be still in motion, flow in dry times and wet, be satisfied both when satisfied and when not ...

... is a set of insights and skills that the vast, vast majority of people in this hungry, restless world could use right now.

Gassho, J

STLah

I wouldn't want to judge if a Buddhist text, or any text for that matter, was too analytical because I'm not inclined to think there is such a thing unless you can't do anything else. The day you can't meditate, or enjoy the simple taste of food, or relish a poem, or lose yourself in embrace, or see the forest along with the trees, on that day you have become too analytical. Other than that when you sip coffee you sip coffee even though it is different from eating mashed potatoes and when you are thinking about the various inter-related issues in the world of Buddhist (and Zen) thought, then that is simply what you are doing at that time even though it is different from sitting unattached to concepts receiving the whole world while simultaneously letting it go.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

Some early Buddhist writings are nothing if not analytical and skeptical in orientation so out of the many world religions it seems like there would be a special place for that as a Buddhist approach.

Yes, but how often they were too analytical, caught in their own "angels on the head of a pin" tangles and imaginings ... rather than feeling the sting of the pin prick.

Since Buddha is presented as wanting people to test the teachings out for themselves it seems like it would be anti-dharmic to assume that everything we might ever want to know or think is clearly laid out in a single tradition.

There is more than one way to bake a strawberry cheesecake, some delicious and some just tasteless or terrible (although different tongues may disagree). Personally, I believe that Shikantaza ... learning to just be without the endless "more more more", sitting without running always for what's next, learning to flow so as not to be flooded with aversions and attractions, being satisfied even amid this often dissatisfying life ... learning to seek more and not seek more AT ONCE TOGETHER, be still in motion, flow in dry times and wet, be satisfied both when satisfied and when not ...

... is a set of insights and skills that the vast, vast majority of people in this hungry, restless world could use right now.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

For Zen teachings, it is often "proof is in the pudding:" One knows that a strawberry cheesecake tastes good, and that the recipe is successful, because it tastes good ... one knows that a light bulb works because there is light ... one knows that there is air to breathe because one breathes, and it is not necessary to know the name of the baker, the physics of photons or the physiology of the respiratory system to know those things and to savor and see in the darkness and breathe.

For other kinds of knowledge, such as whether "the world is a simulation," or there is a "Bardo" or that (as ancient Buddhists believed, until very recently in fact: https://tricycle.org/magazine/first-...e-no-mountain/ ) the earth is flat, I may need some other kinds of proof, and if I am writing a cook book, designing light bulbs or a doctor studying the respiratory system, perhaps I need the technical details more.

However, Zen folks know to savor the sweetness, summon the Illumination, flow like the wind.

Gassho, J

STLah

Yes, the need for positive evidence I would primarily apply to the simulation issue or roundness of the earth. Spiritual paths are more experiential and so they follow a different criteria (although experience and how we think about it is an evidence of a sort).

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

This... Kokuu says it perfectly.

For what it's worth, I've been quietly following this thread as such analytical discourse satisfies that part of my mind that first connected with Buddhism back when I was a graduate student in Western Philosophy (I spent quite a bit of time comparing Buddhism with Heidegger, etc.)

For years, I would say that I maintained a balance of 80% study/20% practice, although I didn't feel so at the time. Over the years, that balance has shifted to the exact opposite ratio, and there will always be a place for analytical study, but I've realized that I'm much happier when I don't get too hung up on the analytical side. In fact, I often find that poetry can help satisfy my need to understand the Dharma through language as it uses language to help see beyond language.

If the Dharma could be fully understood through purely intellectual exercises, then practice would be unnecessary. That said, it is generally considered to be beyond the reach of intellect alone, so we have to know when to drop the analysis, else it's like trying to satisfy a sweet tooth with more sugar... one never gets enough.

Gassho,
Rob

-stlah-

P.S. Please excuse the use of more than three sentences above.


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Sometimes there are elements of the Buddhist or Zen tradition I am trying to understand but I would consider that in some way distinct from the Tao, as it were. Some early Buddhist writings are nothing if not analytical and skeptical in orientation so out of the many world religions it seems like there would be a special place for that as a Buddhist approach. Since Buddha is presented as wanting people to test the teachings out for themselves it seems like it would be anti-dharmic to assume that everything we might ever want to know or think is clearly laid out in a single tradition.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

Beliefs may change but the consistent factor is a need for positive evidence in order to justify those beliefs. Anything could be possible but evidence and reason help us know what is probable.

Gassho,

For Zen teachings, it is often "proof is in the pudding:" One knows that a strawberry cheesecake tastes good, and that the recipe is successful, because it tastes good ... one knows that a light bulb works because there is light ... one knows that there is air to breathe because one breathes, and it is not necessary to know the name of the baker, the physics of photons or the physiology of the respiratory system to know those things and to savor and see in the darkness and breathe.

For other kinds of knowledge, such as whether "the world is a simulation," or there is a "Bardo" or that (as ancient Buddhists believed, until very recently in fact: https://tricycle.org/magazine/first-...e-no-mountain/ ) the earth is flat, I may need some other kinds of proof, and if I am writing a cook book, designing light bulbs or a doctor studying the respiratory system, perhaps I need the technical details more.

However, Zen folks know to savor the sweetness, summon the Illumination, flow like the wind.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

Andrew,

In Zen we learn to be comfortable with 'not knowing' and to not always give in to the need for the mind to know everything which is often about a desire for control.

Treeleaf, and Zen, is not anti-intellectual, but I have personally found that letting go of the need for answers brings a different, and deeper, kind of understanding that goes beyond words.

Of course there are times to ask questions but do not be surprised that often you may be asked to put those questions down.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

I'm actually quite comfortable not knowing but I'm also interested in learning whatever I can learn. My thoughts and questions express sincere interests so if I find they are considered too intellectual then I'll explore other avenues to supplement my curiosity. Either way, I have been enjoying this forum and your voice reciting Dogen

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

I wasn't arguing that a theory alone does validate an idea. My point was that the earth not being flat would have been viewed very similarly to the simulation theory and that we shouldn't be too attached to what might seem like common sense to us (that doesn't mean we should reject something either for being common sense). Another thing that many people consider to be common sense is the idea of an individual self, but that doesn't necessarily mean there is one. And it's only very recently that science is starting to consider the idea that a "self" might be a form of illusion created by the left side of our brain. (The book No Self, No Problem was really interesting and talks about that)

And I'll say this, if the universe did turn out to be a simulation it might explain some of the weirdness about quantum mechanics and why observing things at the sub atomic level causes them to adhere to a specific state (where as when unobserved they exist in a state of probability).


Evan,
Sat today

Beliefs may change but the consistent factor is a need for positive evidence in order to justify those beliefs. Anything could be possible but evidence and reason help us know what is probable.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

Ah, Risho, that quote is actually from Master Kyōgen Chikan (Hsiang-yen Chih-hsien; 820–898)!

What Dōgen has to say is a little more nuanced: https://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachi...o/039gabyo.pdf

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

Yes, actually Dogen said...

Because the whole universe and all thoughts within it are the act of drawing a picture, every human thought and thing emerges from a picture, and Buddhas and Ancestors come forth from pictures as well. Thus, beyond the image of a rice cake there is no medicine to satisfy our hungers

Dogen was a great word-smith with many opinions which he liked to express in long writings, but it is not that he believed that any debate about Buddhist philosophy, and kind of analysis or assertion of ordinary worldly opinions expresses the Dharma (even though all are dharma, the same as all things in this messy world). Rather, he believed in certain kinds of expression, "turning words" which convey what is hard to convey, silience and and poetry, shouts and circles in the air are the language we best use.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Risho]

damn you! hahahahah seriously, thank you

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Kokuu]

Ah, Risho, that quote is actually from Master Kyōgen Chikan (Hsiang-yen Chih-hsien; 820–898)!

What Dōgen has to say is a little more nuanced: https://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachi...o/039gabyo.pdf

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Risho]

Painted rice cakes don't satisfy hunger. - Dogen

Someone had to say it

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Jundo]

If the Dharma could be fully understood through purely intellectual exercises, then practice would be unnecessary. That said, it is generally considered to be beyond the reach of intellect alone, so we have to know when to drop the analysis, else it's like trying to satisfy a sweet tooth with more sugar... one never gets enough.

It is more like trying to satisfy a sweet tooth with a debate and intellectual pondering about sweetness: One must just taste some things first hand.

That said, there is much about Buddhism, including Zen, that is intellectually understandable and lends itself to some fruitful explaining and discussion. You will see that we do discuss such topics every day around this Sangha, but there is a time to say ... enough.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Seikan]

In Zen we learn to be comfortable with 'not knowing' and to not always give in to the need for the mind to know everything which is often about a desire for control.

This... Kokuu says it perfectly.

For what it's worth, I've been quietly following this thread as such analytical discourse satisfies that part of my mind that first connected with Buddhism back when I was a graduate student in Western Philosophy (I spent quite a bit of time comparing Buddhism with Heidegger, etc.)

For years, I would say that I maintained a balance of 80% study/20% practice, although I didn't feel so at the time. Over the years, that balance has shifted to the exact opposite ratio, and there will always be a place for analytical study, but I've realized that I'm much happier when I don't get too hung up on the analytical side. In fact, I often find that poetry can help satisfy my need to understand the Dharma through language as it uses language to help see beyond language.

If the Dharma could be fully understood through purely intellectual exercises, then practice would be unnecessary. That said, it is generally considered to be beyond the reach of intellect alone, so we have to know when to drop the analysis, else it's like trying to satisfy a sweet tooth with more sugar... one never gets enough.

Gassho,
Rob

-stlah-

P.S. Please excuse the use of more than three sentences above.


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