Life after disappointment

[chicanobudista]

Re: Life after disappointment

I am bit hesitant to add to this thread since I am afraid this is heading into the Asbestos Wear area.
My only comment that I hope folks don't use the word "censor" too casually.
To state that someone is censoring or censoring you, without proof, is start to deteriorate a discussion.

[Martin]

Re: Life after disappointment

Well, Jundo said it wasn't an easy call. Some agree, some disagree. Me, I'm so dense that I hadn't even noticed the alleged "ban" until a couple of posts after. But, Rowan, (and others) I do hope that it doesn't undermine anyone's "trust" on a permanent basis. I thought it was clear that Jundo acted out of concern for Stephanie. So, too, do those who disagree. Perhaps only Stephanie will know who called it "right", and maybe Stephanie won't know yet. I'm not medically qualified enough or otherwise experienced enough to have an opinion (which isn't to knock those who do). But I think everyone's trying to help as best as they can; we're on the same side here.

Gassho

Martin

[Jundo]

Re: Life after disappointment

Hi Rowan, Robert,

I am sorry that some don't think it was the right decision. But I called it like I saw it. Tough situation all ways around. I feel it was the right thing. to do.

I recognize that you would have handled the situation differently, and I disagree.

I am sorry you are not comfortable here.

Gassho, Jundo

[Shindo]

Re: Life after disappointment

Dear Jundo - I think you have tried to make the best decision you could, with the best intentions and within the context of the hundreds of posts made over the last two years. You have tried to be as open as you could be. Thank you for the sangha you have created, the thoughtful teachings you give and the efforts you make.

Dear Stephanie - get well soon. Hope to see you again - & perhaps with shorter posts

Gassho

Jools

[robert]

Re: Life after disappointment

Jundo,

I appreciate the response, and trust that you did what you felt to be right. Not fair for me to judge, given that I don't really know you, or Stephanie, or the overall context...so doubtless some of what I said was out of line. I made the decision to comment because I needed to bring up my concerns in order to continue feeling comfortable here; thanks for hearing me out.

Gassho,
Rob

[Jinho]

Re: Life after disappointment

Hi Jundo,

I'm also bothered by the way this was handled. The "red flags" for me are:

-- crossing the line by directing someone to a specific course of treatment ("you need to see a professional counselor working with a psychiatrist who can --try-- anti-depressants with you"..."You need to try the medicine")
-- using someone's personal information, communicated by them in their posts, as the basis for making judgments and issuing directives. The fact that we speak about ourselves doesn't give another the right to speak for us. That's common sense.
-- threatening them with a ban unless they followed your directives
-- the overly strong tone, bordering on disrespectful ("you need to"... "tough love baby")
-- dissing the community by calling us "enablers". At the very least, reckless deployment of pop psychology jargon!

I didn't see a Terms of Service for the discussion board. Is there one, and does it say that users with medical or psychiatric conditions must have approval from a professional before practicing here? If that is one of the terms, it should be stated somewhere. Schools, gyms, etc have specific liability issues and legal requirements to deal with. I doubt these are applicable in the same way to an internet forum. You may know better.

Also, since you have known Stephanie a long time and consider her a friend, wouldn't it have been possible to convey your concerns and suggestions in a private e-mail, rather than humiliating her in a public discussion?

I was a teacher for many years, and at my job now I manage a few people. It's true that some calls are tough and even the best teachers sometimes make a questionable one. It seems to happen especially when the intent was good, when one was really trying to help. In all respect, sincerity and appreciation, I think that out of your deep concern you made a bad call. It can happen to anyone in your shoes; it has happened to me. No shame. But how you follow-up can be crucial. Not just for you and Stephanie, but the community as a whole.


Hi Robert,

Thank you for saying this far more elequently than I did or could.

rowan

And I can well imagine that this is a difficult spot to be in, and that no one really welcomes this kind of feedback. People wouldn't offer it if they didn't care, though -- about you and what you have built here.

With all best regards,
Rob

[disastermouse]

Re: Life after disappointment

If there's one thing I've learned about forums, it's that anyone can be banned at any time for pretty much anything.

I think Jundo was offering advice as a person who has struggled with depression and not necessarily as an expert when he suggested Stephanie see a professional and possibly try antidepressants.

I also think that Jundo was attempting to urge her to seek help by cutting off a treatment method that wasn't working - that is, posting about hopelessness and ennui in this forum. Perhaps without access to us as amateur shrinks, she'd seek professional help - correct me if I'm wrong, Jundo.

As someone who suffers from psych issues, I empathize greatly with Stephanie. I understand her anger too - hell, when Jundo doesn't answer my questions with answers I find appropriate, I also tend to get angry. At first. And then I have to ask myself: "Do I want a spiritual teacher who only gives answers I like?" The answer to that is, most likely, "no". If, to be my teacher, one has to agree with me about everything, then why HAVE a teacher? It would appear one of us would then be unnecessary.

Nowhere in his reply did I get the impression that the mentally unwell were unwelcome here. The impression I got was more along the lines of, 'I can't help you in Zen until you get help for you depression.'

I hope Stephanie stays. It seems like maybe some people don't like reading the long posts, but I relate on a very personal level to what she says and I really get where she's coming from. I've never seen Zen or a sangha as a let-down though, mostly because any disappointment I have with Zen leads me right back to myself as a likely cause and also because I've never really gotten involved enough with a sangha or teacher to BE disappointed (I don't get involved with teachers I think are bullshit). I really do understand being frustrated with things not getting 'better' though, and I also appreciate just how hard it is to move forward at all with some of these issues. I too feel devastated when what feels like spectacular effort in these areas yields result that are dismissed by others as trivial.

Chet

[Jundo]

Re: Life after disappointment

Chet, thank you. You describe my thoughts and intentions as I see them, and I suspect, Steph's too. You are a very wise man.

Deep deep bows. Jundo

[Marina S]

Re: Life after disappointment

Reading the posts, both Steph's and others', on the topic of disillusionment with life, I've been thinking about the spiritual path and the Four Noble Truths. Many of us embark on a spiritual quest without being aware of our motivations. Yes, we often do it for self-growth, realization, etc., yet I can't help but wonder if we also do it to escape from suffering. There's an assumption that if we meditate long enough then we'll become better people and somehow transcend suffering. Perhaps we're not even consciously aware of this.

For me, the Buddha didn't espouse an escape from suffering. He said that suffering is a reality of life. He talks about the four "noble" "truths". I've often read about the Four Noble Truths without taking the time to reflect on the terminology. Why label them as "noble"? Perhaps it's not by accident that they were labelled "noble" and "truths". Suffering is a reality (truth); it is a large part of the human condition. For me, the wisdom is not in trying to escape suffering, but rather meeting it head on with nobility and dignity. How can I live my life in a courageous and respectful way?

Metta and Gassho,
Marina

[disastermouse]

Re: Life after disappointment

Reading the posts, both Steph's and others', on the topic of disillusionment with life, I've been thinking about the spiritual path and the Four Noble Truths. Many of us embark on a spiritual quest without being aware of our motivations. Yes, we often do it for self-growth, realization, etc., yet I can't help but wonder if we also do it to escape from suffering. There's an assumption that if we meditate long enough then we'll become better people and somehow transcend suffering. Perhaps we're not even consciously aware of this.

For me, the Buddha didn't espouse an escape from suffering. He said that suffering is a reality of life. He talks about the four "noble" "truths". I've often read about the Four Noble Truths without taking the time to reflect on the terminology. Why label them as "noble"? Perhaps it's not by accident that they were labelled "noble" and "truths". Suffering is a reality (truth); it is a large part of the human condition. For me, the wisdom is not in trying to escape suffering, but rather meeting it head on with nobility and dignity. How can I live my life in a courageous and respectful way?

Metta and Gassho,
Marina

Not to be too picky, but I think we should avoid reducing the Buddha way to mere resignation in the face of suffering. That's a pretty dismal, lifeless path, if you ask me. Maybe someone like me with a personality disorder is the last person to lecture on suffering, but the tastes I've had of liberation suggest that the path is not about mere perseverance in the face of suffering - it's a radical striking at the root of suffering. The first Noble Truth may be the truth of Dukkha, but the third Noble Truth is the reality of the cessation of suffering.

[Marina S]

Re: Life after disappointment

I wasn't saying that the Buddha's teachings were about resignation. Not at all. A significant part of my own Buddhist practice is to try to live with what is in my life. This doesn't mean that I am not proactive in dealing with issues that come up in my life. What it does mean is that I try as often as I can to be aware of those times when I want an escape, and this means even in matters spiritual. Escapes can even take place in a forum such as this one (e.g. retorting rather than reflecting).

From what we know, even after the Buddha became enlightened he continued to live as a human being with all that that entails. His enlightenment didn't mean that he became immune to the human condition. His enlightenment came as a result of his suffering. He didn't try to run away from it anymore through extreme spiritual practices. Instead, he sat under the bodhi tree. A simple yet powerful act. Courage and dignity. The Buddha embarked on his spiritual quest not just because he witnessed the suffering of others, but especially did so when he saw a holy man walking with dignity and compassion amidst the suffering. Connecting with my own humanity, rather than attempting to escape it, helps me to connect with that of others.

[Eika]

Re: Life after disappointment

I wasn't saying that the Buddha's teachings were about resignation. Not at all. A significant part of my own Buddhist practice is to try to live with what is in my life. This doesn't mean that I am not proactive in dealing with issues that come up in my life. What it does mean is that I try as often as I can to be aware of those times when I want an escape, and this means even in matters spiritual. Escapes can even take place in a forum such as this one (e.g. retorting rather than reflecting).

From what we know, even after the Buddha became enlightened he continued to live as a human being with all that that entails. His enlightenment didn't mean that he became immune to the human condition. His enlightenment came as a result of his suffering. He didn't try to run away from it anymore through extreme spiritual practices. Instead, he sat under the bodhi tree. A simple yet powerful act. Courage and dignity. The Buddha embarked on his spiritual quest not just because he witnessed the suffering of others, but especially did so when he saw a holy man walking with dignity and compassion amidst the suffering. Connecting with my own humanity, rather than attempting to escape it, helps me to connect with that of others.

Hi, Marina and Chet, et al.
I took Marina's comments to mean that all 4 noble truths are true. Not simply the last two (the more "optimistic" ones). I also do not think that Chet was suggesting that only the last two are true, but I think many folks end up focusing on one or more truths without seeing them as an integrated whole. I might be misreading, but that seems a wise, and very Soto viewpoint.

-Bill

[disastermouse]

Re: Life after disappointment

I wasn't saying that the Buddha's teachings were about resignation. Not at all. A significant part of my own Buddhist practice is to try to live with what is in my life. This doesn't mean that I am not proactive in dealing with issues that come up in my life. What it does mean is that I try as often as I can to be aware of those times when I want an escape, and this means even in matters spiritual. Escapes can even take place in a forum such as this one (e.g. retorting rather than reflecting).

From what we know, even after the Buddha became enlightened he continued to live as a human being with all that that entails. His enlightenment didn't mean that he became immune to the human condition. His enlightenment came as a result of his suffering. He didn't try to run away from it anymore through extreme spiritual practices. Instead, he sat under the bodhi tree. A simple yet powerful act. Courage and dignity. The Buddha embarked on his spiritual quest not just because he witnessed the suffering of others, but especially did so when he saw a holy man walking with dignity and compassion amidst the suffering. Connecting with my own humanity, rather than attempting to escape it, helps me to connect with that of others.

Hi, Marina and Chet, et al.
I took Marina's comments to mean that all 4 noble truths are true. Not simply the last two (the more "optimistic" ones). I also do not think that Chet was suggesting that only the last two are true, but I think many folks end up focusing on one or more truths without seeing them as an integrated whole. I might be misreading, but that seems a wise, and very Soto viewpoint.

-Bill

True! I think that most people who come to Buddhism are intimately familiar with the first Truth, and take the rest as a working hypothesis. I remember Hagen discussing that the literal image for Dukkha is 'a wheel out of true' that consequently delivers a very bumpy ride.

[MikeBr]

Re: Life after disappointment

Hi Marina,

You said:

Reading the posts, both Steph's and others', on the topic of disillusionment with life, I've been thinking about the spiritual path and the Four Noble Truths. Many of us embark on a spiritual quest without being aware of our motivations. Yes, we often do it for self-growth, realization, etc., yet I can't help but wonder if we also do it to escape from suffering. There's an assumption that if we meditate long enough then we'll become better people and somehow transcend suffering. Perhaps we're not even consciously aware of this.

For me, the Buddha didn't espouse an escape from suffering. He said that suffering is a reality of life. He talks about the four "noble" "truths". I've often read about the Four Noble Truths without taking the time to reflect on the terminology. Why label them as "noble"? Perhaps it's not by accident that they were labelled "noble" and "truths". Suffering is a reality (truth); it is a large part of the human condition. For me, the wisdom is not in trying to escape suffering, but rather meeting it head on with nobility and dignity. How can I live my life in a courageous and respectful way?

Ah, F*ck!
Aah, F*ck!

Got your attention, didn't it? It certainly got mine!

During retreat, the speaker was introducing Buddha’s “Parable of the Two Arrows.” In more measured language, he went on to quote the Buddha and explain:

“’When afflicted with a feeling of pain those who lack inner awareness sorrow, grieve and lament, beating their breasts and becoming distraught. So they feel two pains, physical and mental. It is just like being shot with an arrow, and right afterwards being shot with a second one, so that they feel two arrows...”’

“Thus the Buddha explained the distinction between pain – an affliction – on the one hand, and, on the other, our suffering from pain, -- how our experience of pain can discomfit, frustrate or agonize us. We can see this on any hospital ward, where the responses of patients to much the same affliction may vary very widely, from depression and despair to a buoyant and inspiring good state of mind.. This is an extremely important distinction whether in helping ourselves, in offering help to others, or in trying to do something to remedy the injustices in the world. In the ancient practice of emotional awareness our first step is to lean to distinguish between the two arrows in the experiences of our own lives….”

Read the speaker’s discourse in full at http://www.wisdom-books.com/FocusDetail.asp?FocusRef=24. It's worth your while.

With metta.

Gassho

[Yugen]

Re: Life after disappointment

Dear all,
First, I would like to say that the discussion / debate to date is the sign of a robust community in my mind. I would like to thank Jundo for all the work he has done to bring us together, and the fine balance as teacher he has to maintain between open dialogue and the progress/safety of his students and sangha. I would also like to thank Stephanie for the openness with which she has shared her journey, her thoughts and emotions. If our welcoming presence is helpful, then in some small way we are there for her. If we are unable to contribute anything, then our patience itself is practice - it helps us, and it helps Stephanie to work things out. I have found her posts thought provoking, and if they are long, that is more than compensated for by the quality of her writing. If her posts raise some uncomfortable feeling or reaction on my part, that is something for me to work on.

If there are specific signs that lead us to be concerned for the physical / emotional welfare of one of our compatriots, there are ways to convey that concern. I am not an expert on online fora and safety guidelines, but I can both appreciate Jundo's experience, perspective, and concern as a teacher and one who has had experience with depression, as well as Stephanie's place in our community.

I think of Jefferson's statement that "dissent is the highest form of patriotism." Also, Bakunin's quote "anarchy is the mother of order."

We are all a bright and considerate bunch here. There is something for each of us to learn form this episode. We are all thinking of you Stephanie, I hope you stick around.

Gassho,
Alex