Tolerance in an age of Intolerance.

[Rob H]

(DISCLAIMER: It's not my wish to cause division, anger or anything negative here and I apologize in advance for potentially hurting anyone's feelings. I have a legitimate question that I'm struggling with.)

Hi all. As Buddhists, we try to live in harmony with everyone and all things but in the Western world right now, there seems to be a minority of certain people who are bent on making sure they have things their way and to heck with everyone else and their ways and opinions. Just a few examples: Certain words are banned unless you are of particular races. Only one side of history can be freely spoken or taught. Wearing the wrong earrings (YES, EARRINGS!!) can be seen as cultural misappropriation. Your religious beliefs come second to certain lifestyles and you can be fined or potentially lose your income for standing by your 'right' to religious freedom. Even targeting kindergarten aged children to consider alternative genders is being pushed (I do not think there are 50 plus genders. I personally think there are hetero, gay, bi and a few genuine cases of people trapped in the wrong gendered body. Everything else seems to quickly have become trendy). If you speak out against any of these, you are labelled a bigot, a 'phobe' etc. TV shows all take the same stance and it's as if we are being conditioned to all act, think and comply into 'not going against the grain'.
How do we remain tolerant? How tolerant do you have to be? What if you harbor negative ideas about some of these things? Do we simply just go with the flow and let things pan out for better or worse? What if you genuinely feel some things will be for the worst? How do you mindfully speak out as a Buddhist? Or do we just remain silent?
I'm really trying hard to drop all my negative feelings towards some of what I see these days and am just having a hard time with it.

I welcome everyone's responses and again, I'm very sorry if I have offended.

Gassho.

ST.

[Jundo]

Hi Rob,

The world has always been crazy and complicated. lt was in Buddha's day, and Dogen's day, and is today. Then, if you said the wrong thing, or wore the wrong clothes, somebody would stone you (literally) or toss you in the dungeon. Then, people of different religions or genders or identities were banished or had to live in hiding (my own brother, who was gay, had to live in secret in the 1950's). l think it crazy to force kids to decide their gender before puberty (l have heard experts say it is ridiculous), but it is nice that they can now get married when older if they love somebody. l once stopped people at Treeleaf from calling things they thought dumb as "retarded" (l volunteer with mentally disable kids so did not take kindly to it). People used to call my grandparents "kikes" or "Hebes," and my grandparents thought nothing of called black people "negoes" or (worse) "Schvartze" (a Yikddish term). They were fired for their religious beliefs, and a few times beaten up, Jews and Blacks were not allowed to stay in certain hotels or eat in certain restaurants. Japanese people were tossed in internment camps for being Japanese (still seems an issue these days however). The treatment of Native Americans or Aborigines was not discussed, or they would be sent to certain schools to be like white people. People died of measles and polio because there were no vaccinations (some want that again).

So, l think that things are still crazy and complicated, but maybe better in some ways.

However, not everyone has to agree with every social policy or moral issue. So, what to do? First, stay quiet if it is someone else's private business, but if one has to speak (and it is not a matter of life or death), say your piece softly and civilly, and then let it go and let it be. l am a man of strong opinions myself, and l am not afraid to say them in the right place, debate them civilly, but l try not to fight about things. There may even be times to speak more strongly, if truly a matter of principle, the health and safety of children or the like.

Otherwise, l advise you to think thrice before speaking, ask if it is truly necessary, then speak your piece softly yet clearly, then bow and walk away.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

PS- Rob, one matter that l am intolerant about is a photo. Would you mind to put a human face photo so that we can look you in the eye just a little bit? Thank you.

[Rob H]

Hi Jundo and thankyou for your fast response. I will certainly do my best to follow your advice.
I'm sorry about my lack of photo; I can't seem to get my profile to allow me to upload one. Now that I've said that, I'll try again and it will probably work lol! ��

Gassho.
Rob.

ST.

[Kokuu]

Hi Rob

In my opinion, society and cultures are always going through periods of change, trying to adapt to new norms and find a balance between tolerance for different groups. There is rarely total agreement and the rights of one group often conflict with the rights of another.

For example, people 'standing their ground on religious rights' include those who wish to exclude lesbian and gay folk from their services. How do we square that with the right of LGBTQIA+ folk to be able to use normal business services without being told they are not catered for because of 'religious reasons'?

I have personally not heard of kindergarten children being told to consider 50+ genders but rather a focus on inclusive relationship education which many pre-school children will have already encountered in their family or social network. Even that, however, will clearly be of concern to people who religious beliefs consider such acts as sinful.

It rather seems to me that there are very much two opposing sides in this debate with no one side having all of the playing field. People on the (so-called) progressive side of the argument are subjected to name-calling as much as those on the more conservative, religious side of the debate. Ethnic minorities still fare far less well in employment and economic terms and LGBTQIA+ folk have far higher rates of bullying and suicide than people with conventional sexual and gender presentation. In the southern United States, slavery is undergoing a bit of a positive gloss, even as ethnic tensions are highlighted in other geographical areas. In the UK our colonial history is considerably white-washed while black Britons understandably wish to talk about that past.

There seems to me to be two sides who want things to be as they see rather than one. And that also seems to me to be reflected in the media rather than all people speaking with the same voice. We just tend to notice where our opinions are disagreed with more than those where they are reflected. I know I do and it is annoying!

For me, tolerance comes from listening to those on the other side. Why are they thinking what they are thinking? What are their fears? Who will be affected by the views I hold?

I think there are mindful ways we can express our own opinions but sometimes the response is not as tolerant was we might want it to be. Political discourse at the moment seems to be very tribal and toxic. Perhaps it has always been thus but social media seems to have amplified the differences and made it easier for people to find their particular tribe and become more partisan. We know as well that social media curates our content so that we see more of what we agree with than what we don't. Conservative people see more conservative media. 'Progressive' folk see more of that.

I notice myself a visceral reaction when someone expresses an opinion I very much disagree with and see that as the first step. What is it within me that struggles with an alternate point of view that it is seen as a threat? Have I considered that point of view before and am I willing to or will I stick to my view that I am correct and find others on my side to confirm that?

The third Patriarch, Sengcan is said to have written the teaching poem 'Faith in Mind' of which the most well known lines are

The great way is not difficult. Just avoid picking and choosing!

Of course, we all have to pick and choose every day and we do so with our political opinions. The problem comes when we attach to them and completely see ourselves as right and correct. Then arises aversion to those with different views and attachment to our own views.

That is not to say that our own views do not lack merit and should not be acted upon or expressed. However, the current state of the world seems to be one of conflict and anything we can do to reach out to others whom we disagree with is not a bad thing. That does not mean to say we either keep silent or give in but it does mean remembering that everyone is a human being with feelings and opinions that come from their own experience and upbringing. No one wants to suffer and everybody wants to be happy. As the Buddha is quoted as saying in The Dhammapada - "Hatred does not cease through hatred but through love."

If you feel that society is taking a turn for a worse, then please continue to speak out and act. But please do so mindfully and with respect and remembering that all of our views are conditioned by our own background and upbringing. Just as are everyone else's.

Also remember that things are impermanent. If things do not seem to be going your way at the moment, you can be sure that at some point there will be a turnaround. Things never seem to find a status-quo but instead move backwards and forwards as opinions shift and conditions change. In the end we cannot control the political environment but we can focus on our own actions to try and make the world a better, and kinder, place. If the one thing we do is to try and make discussions and political discourse a little bit gentler, and to show the other side that not everyone who disagrees with them is their enemy, this is not a bad thing to aim for.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

ps. in Buddhist circles, it is certainly true that the liberal viewpoint dominates and it can be hard for those who are more conservative to feel at home in Buddhist discussion groups and communities. This is very much something for us to work on as tolerance works both ways.

[Rob H]

Hi Jundo and thankyou for your fast response. I will certainly do my best to follow your advice.
I'm sorry about my lack of photo; I can't seem to get my profile to allow me to upload one. Now that I've said that, I'll try again and it will probably work lol! ��

Gassho.
Rob.

ST.

HAHAHA! I was right...I got it to work. My fault - not Treeleaf's.

Gassho.
Rob.

ST.

[Jundo]

HAHAHA! I was right...I got it to work. My fault - not Treeleaf's.

Gassho.
Rob.

ST.

Not yet Rob. Would you look here, at No. 4, and that says how ... Thank you.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?8531-CONFIDENTIALITY-TIPS-for-Sangha-Members&p=54991&viewfull=1#post54991

Gassho, J

STLah

[Mp]

HAHAHA! I was right...I got it to work. My fault - not Treeleaf's.

Gassho.
Rob.

ST.

Hey Rob,

Here is a little tutorial of how to upload an avatar if you are having issues. =)

Here is a walk through in creating or changing your Avatar:

1. Click on "Settings" in the user profile section.
2. Scroll down to the "My Settings" box and click "Edit Avatar" in the My Profile section.
3. Click the "Use Custom Avatar" radio button.
4. Enter a URL in the Option 1 box if the custom image you wish to use is on a website. Ensure that the image meets the requirements for size listed below the box. If the custom image is stored on your computer, click the "Browse" button in the Option 2 box, select the file and click "Open."
5. Click "Save Changes" to see the avatar as it will appear on the site. The avatar will appear alongside your user name when you post a message on the site. New avatar's retroactively appear with previous posts.

Q: I cannot upload my picture for my profile because it is too large. How can I re-size my picture to conform to the forums image upload requirements?

A: A quick and easy way to do this is to visit http://shrinkpictures.com/create-avatar/
and follow the instructions given there. Also if you have re-sized your image and are certain it meets the 80 px by 80px @ 72 ppi requirements yet still cannot upload your image you can visit http://imageshack.us or http://www.flickr.com/ or any image hosting service and upload your image to be hosted, for free, there. and use the "Link to off-site Avatar" option

Let me know if you run into any troubles or if you have any questions, please feel free in contacting me anytime.

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Hoseki]

(DISCLAIMER: It's not my wish to cause division, anger or anything negative here and I apologize in advance for potentially hurting anyone's feelings. I have a legitimate question that I'm struggling with.)

Hi all. As Buddhists, we try to live in harmony with everyone and all things but in the Western world right now, there seems to be a minority of certain people who are bent on making sure they have things their way and to heck with everyone else and their ways and opinions. Just a few examples: Certain words are banned unless you are of particular races. Only one side of history can be freely spoken or taught. Wearing the wrong earrings (YES, EARRINGS!!) can be seen as cultural misappropriation. Your religious beliefs come second to certain lifestyles and you can be fined or potentially lose your income for standing by your 'right' to religious freedom. Even targeting kindergarten aged children to consider alternative genders is being pushed (I do not think there are 50 plus genders. I personally think there are hetero, gay, bi and a few genuine cases of people trapped in the wrong gendered body. Everything else seems to quickly have become trendy). If you speak out against any of these, you are labelled a bigot, a 'phobe' etc. TV shows all take the same stance and it's as if we are being conditioned to all act, think and comply into 'not going against the grain'.
How do we remain tolerant? How tolerant do you have to be? What if you harbor negative ideas about some of these things? Do we simply just go with the flow and let things pan out for better or worse? What if you genuinely feel some things will be for the worst? How do you mindfully speak out as a Buddhist? Or do we just remain silent?
I'm really trying hard to drop all my negative feelings towards some of what I see these days and am just having a hard time with it.

I welcome everyone's responses and again, I'm very sorry if I have offended.

Gassho.

ST.

Hi Rob,

So I think about this kind of stuff a lot though I suspect I might be on a different corner of a political map. I can't really add much to Jundo and Kokuu comments but I do have a couple of thoughts.

I'm not sure if your familiar with "historical contingency." It means something to the effect that most things have a variety of causes or conditions that bring it forth. When it was introduced to me the speaker asked if I though I would be the same person and have the same opinions if I had been born somewhere radically different? For example, do you think you would feel the same way about democracy if you had been born the first son of the king of England about 1 years ago? The idea I'm trying to get at is much of what we feel is right or wrong has to do with our experiences of the world. That can be through books, people we've met, stuff we've watched on tv and what not. All these things that shape our understanding of the world and ourselves were themselves the result of various causes and conditions. Does this make sense?

My point is if we let go of the desire to act when we feel this kind of discomfort (I find it difficult) we can take a look at ourselves and what we are experiencing. Why do I feel disgust when I see example x? Well its probably go back to my personal history somewhere. Maybe its because I didn't see x when I was growing up? Maybe people who I trust and respect told me it was wrong. Either way its just history. What we can do now is to try and decontextualize it. So when we encounter X we feel Y. Another way to put is when X appears so does Y. But if we look around we can see that other people don't seem to feel disgust when they see X. Why is that? Could I be another way? Should I be another way? Maybe I think about it and I say no I'm good with this feeling. Torturers don't feel disgust when they torture but I think they should. Any who, just food for thought.

Another thing to think about is that sometimes when people are caught up in something and full of passion they can misidentify what's being said for something else. For example, when the metoo movement kicked off I had some concerns that people were going to affected by claims without a thorough investigation. I had this disagreement with my wife who said to me you always believe the victims and my response was that I don't know if they are actually a victim yet. I don't know how else to be fair to both people. But when people are full of passion or simply learning about concepts for the first time they misjudge you. Language is messier than we usually realize for these kinds of mistakes a common.

A couple of other points. If you look into race as a biological concept you will find that its not really a thing. The genetics don't really back up that there are distinct races. This is not to say we don't have populations with hereditary characteristics its just that race as a concept only works because appearances can be deceiving. Its worth looking up.

Another thing I've found useful is trying to remember as Kokuu pointed out that these people I disagree agree with are just people. Did they tremble before their first kiss? Do they have children they rocked to sleep? Do they have hopes and dreams and fears? I sometimes image these people just doing and feeling human things.

This is my last point. I ask myself this fairly often. Are these people hurting anyone? If not, then I feel I these feelings are mine to deal with. But if there is legitimate harm being caused then its time to speak up.

I hope some of this resonates with you and I hope your OK.


Gassho
Sattoday/lah
Hoseki

[Rob H]

Not yet Rob. Would you look here, at No. 4, and that says how ... Thank you.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?8531-CONFIDENTIALITY-TIPS-for-Sangha-Members&p=54991&viewfull=1#post54991

Gassho, J

STLah

Sorry to be a pain but is my avatar working now, please? It's definitely showing up in my profile.
Gassho.
Rob.

ST.

[Kokuu]

Hi Rob

I remember when I did this an age ago. There is a difference between your avatar (which I think displays by each forum post and comment) and your profile picture. If you go to 'settings' they are both there on the left hand side. Make sure you upload to both.

As you will see, your picture is still not showing by your comment.

It's a pain but you only need to do it once fortunately (unless you grow horns or something!).

Gassho
Kokuu

[Mp]

Sorry to be a pain but is my avatar working now, please? It's definitely showing up in my profile.
Gassho.
Rob.

ST.

Looking great Rob ... I can see you now, thanks for doing this. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Rob H]

Looking great Rob ... I can see you now, thanks for doing this. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

Thankyou, my friend.
I'm glad it's worked now.

Gassho.
Rob.

ST

[Kyotai]

Hey Rob,

Others have said it better than I could. One thing I would add..all these topics, and others which make the rounds on social media and YouTube..are designed to keep our attention on thinking about these issues, which give rise to our own reactions and stress. Media consumption has reached an all time high. It's too much.

There is a time to think about social issues, and a time to put that away and focus on the weeds growing in the back garden.

Gassho Kyotai
ST

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

Sorry to be a pain but is my avatar working now, please? It's definitely showing up in my profile.
Gassho.
Rob.

ST.

Ah, there you are! Powerful gaze!

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Jundo]

Hey Rob,

Others have said it better than I could. One thing I would add..all these topics, and others which make the rounds on social media and YouTube..are designed to keep our attention on thinking about these issues, which give rise to our own reactions and stress. Media consumption has reached an all time high. It's too much.

There is a time to think about social issues, and a time to put that away and focus on the weeds growing in the back garden.

Gassho Kyotai
ST

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

This is so true, and I am pulled in too. Social media makes so many nonsense "issues" among the real issues. Frankly, we should all be seriously discussing on a wonk level immigration policy and the environment, but instead we talk about which candidate is 1% ahead this week and has not put her foot in her mouth, the Kardashians, and Pottery Barn releasing a 'Friends' collection ...

https://us.cnn.com/2019/07/12/entertainment/friends-pottery-barn-trnd/index.html

We are part of "social media" here at Treeleaf too, I know, and I am on facebook. However, if I may say, we tend to keep a high ratio of "serious Dharma discussion" to silly noise and wasted bandwidth around here. So, I think we are doing reasonable okay.

Let me mention that I actually think that the "24 hour news cycle" and internet are making everyone crazy with their "if it bleeds it leeds" mentality, and trending and memes. Everyone now gets their 15 seconds of fame, is worried about the "disease of the day," is convinced the society is on the verge of civil war and needs to waste brain space to see if they really would want a "Friends" sofa from Pottery Barn (I mean, when I saw the title, I had to spend a second to decide if that is something).

All I can say is that society has always been chaos and confusion. This is just the modern version. In the past, the problem was more a lack of information, narrow views and ignorance. Now the problem is simply too much information ... the narrow views and ignorance remain.

There ... more bandwidth taken up by my rant!

Gassho, J

STLah