mindfulness etc.

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 41114

    #16
    I just finished the manuscript for a short book in which I explain the ways of Shikantaza, and seek to pack in all the powerful Buddhist perspectives, without mentioning "Buddha" or "Dogen" much at all. It is also for folks who might benefit and be brought to these teachings, but would hesitate for something associated with "Buddhism" or the like. Same medicine, different package. There is a place for doing that.

    However, many of the teachings coming under the lable of "mindfulness" seem to throw out the baby Buddha with the bathwater, and are offering a technique that is watered down.

    That said, I think it is not good to associate Thich Nhat Hanh's approach to "mindfulness" meditation, or Jon Kabat-Zinn's original writings on the technique, with the more commercial and watery versions. I think there is a bit more substance there from what I have read.

    Nonetheless, here we practice Shikantaza in this Sangha/ I think that people could widely benefit from Shikantaza, and the Buddhist teachings on Dukkha, "Emptiness" and "non-self" and all the rest that is regularly left out of modern presentations of meditation.

    Gassho, J

    SatTodayLAH
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    Comment

    • Kokuu
      Dharma Transmitted Priest
      • Nov 2012
      • 6975

      #17
      I am just curious, why is it so frowned upon here, or in zen in general? speaking to that, probably one of the most famous, popular zen monks/writers, thich nhat hanh, makes mindfulness a central and important part of his teachings
      Hi Richard!

      I can imagine having your practice not greeted with enthusiasm didn't feel great, especially as it does have its roots in Buddhist sutras and the writings of Thich Nhat Hanh.

      As others have said, there is a lot of difference between secular mindfulness (which can vary greatly in both its effectiveness and depth) and mindfulness used in the context of The Four Foundations of Mindfulness from the Satipathanna sutta. Whereas that sutra forms the basis of some forms of Theravadin meditation and I personally like it a great deal, the Vietnamese Zen of Thich Nhat Hanh seems unusual in Zen Buddhism for drawing on it.

      Vipassana meditation, as practiced in Theravada Buddhism, looks at the different skandhas to understand phenomena such as emptiness and impermanence. Thus they come to an understand of their own nature and the world of experience.

      There is absolutely nothing wrong with that approach but in Soto Zen and at Treeleaf we take a different approach of sitting with everything that is with absolutely nothing left out. Rather than picking the meal apart to determine the nature of its ingredients, we swallow the world whole.

      As we practice more, it is often noted that zazen doesn't confine itself to the cushion but spills over into how we approach our life, with no separation between actions and actor. Body and mind falls away leaving a flowing whole that Jundo beautifully described as a dance in the last zazenki.

      So, from my point of view, there is nothing wrong with mindfulness per se. It is just not the approach we use here.

      It is, however, worth noting, that I am a novice priest and my take on mindfulness may not represent the opinions of Sotoshu, Treeleaf or the American government.

      Gassho
      Kokuu
      -sattoday/lah-

      Comment

      • Ryushi
        Member
        • Jan 2018
        • 185

        #18
        It is also for folks who might benefit and be brought to these teachings, but would hesitate for something associated with "Buddhism" or the like. Same medicine, different package. There is a place for doing that.
        Skillful means?

        EDIT: (Just saw that the wikipedia entry for upaya/skilful means actually references the debate over mindfulness.)

        Sat today. Gassho.
        Last edited by Ryushi; 08-30-2018, 05:18 PM.


        No merit. Vast emptiness; nothing holy. I don't know.

        Comment

        • Jundo
          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
          • Apr 2006
          • 41114

          #19
          Originally posted by Aurkihnowe
          ... , i seem to have an unusually busy, reactive mind, which causes me no end of grief, being lost in patterns, and loops all the time.
          And by the way, guess what?

          We also recommend to folks "following the breath" to anchor focus a bit for people with the busy and reactive mind. We only suggest a gradual transition to "open spacious awareness" which is centered on "everything and nothing in particular" to folks who have already a bit of mental quiet and stability, and don't have a runaway mind. In Shikantaza, we sit on calm days, with a clear blue sky, but also on stormy days when the head goes a mile a minute. HOWEVER, that does not mean that we really should sit all the time with the head going a mile a minute! While "there is no bad Zazen," it is best to have some stillness, quiet and stability in the mind ... either the clear blue sky or, at least, only a light drizzle ... for Shikantaza most days. Some folks need an anchor, and the breath (or for some folks like Uchiyama Roshi, returning to the posture) is the anchor to settle down.

          Sit-a-Long with Jundo: Zazen for Beginners (11) (The Breath)
          What’s the most important thing to remember about ‘breathing‘ during Zazen? DON’T STOP! I am now recommending to folks, especially people new to sitting, that they lightly follow the breath as it enters and exits the body through the nose. No need to repeat to oneself "in" or "out" (although very new folks


          And what is the difference between such "following the breath" in Shikantaza and "following the breath" in "mindfulness"? Nothing that I can see. "Following the breath" is "following the breath."

          The only (and important) difference, if you ask me, is the radical "nothing to attain beyond sitting" and "sitting as the only thing to do, the one act and one place to be in the whole world" attitude of Shikantaza.

          Gassho, Jundo

          SatTodayLAH
          Last edited by Jundo; 08-31-2018, 04:16 AM.
          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

          Comment

          • Aurkihnowe
            Member
            • Mar 2016
            • 70

            #20
            deep bows to all who took the time to give me feedback..let me elaborate on my original post...

            i practice, or plan on starting a regular practice, of zazen, and yes, i usually rely on a backbone, like breathing or touch and go with thoughts...i realize this is not strict shikantaza, but i will probably correct and adapt as i delve further into dogen and zen books...but my original meditation inspiration was chogyam trungpa (yes im aware of his well documented character flaws) and he taught that in order to engage in bodhicitta/bodhisattva activity, it's important to have a certain discipline of character, to save yourself before you help others, so to speak...this is a somewhat simplification of his ideas, but thats the basis of it...as to mindfulness, i am drawn to it more as something to engage in OFF the cushion, as a way of acquiring a sacred presence/luminous awareness throughout my life....i am still learning and struggling, but there it is...i mean no boat rocking or disrespect to the sangha in bringing these things up, nor am i proselytizing or saying you should change your ways...i just wanted to get some feedback on how zen practitioners viewed mindfulness (not pop mindfulness, but buddhistic based mindfulness)...also, the last foundation of mindfulness is one i find most effective, as it is a mindfulness of dharmas, both in the sense of phenomenon and the teachings of the wise that have come before...i especially find being mindful of the emptiness of phenomenon to be helpful when i feel stuck or frustrated..a liberating technique indeed, to me

            gassho

            richard

            sat today

            Comment

            • Jundo
              Treeleaf Founder and Priest
              • Apr 2006
              • 41114

              #21
              Richard,

              If it works for you, do that!

              Please sit Shikantaza at least once a day when around this place in the way we practice in this place. Other times, do other things as one wishes. Off the cushion, we also encourage mindfulness of the "mind theatre" and not getting caught. Yes, keep studying and embodying the basic Teachings of Buddhism on emptiness and such.

              No disrespect meant or felt here.

              Gassho, Jundo

              SatTodayLAH
              ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

              Comment

              Working...