mindfulness etc.

[Aurkihnowe]

a year or so back i mentioned mindfulness as a practice, and was either ignored or rebuffed, as it doesn't seem to be popular here. I am just curious, why is it so frowned upon here, or in zen in general? speaking to that, probably one of the most famous, popular zen monks/writers, thich nhat hanh, makes mindfulness a central and important part of his teachings. i am interested in the practice, and the four foundations, because, well, to borrow a rather common but apt phrase from pema chodron, i seem to have an unusually busy, reactive mind, which causes me no end of grief, being lost in patterns, and loops all the time.

just would like some feedback on mindfulness in general, the pros and cons, etc. (i've heard mindfulness descriped as "spiritual heroin", but, tbh, i've heard buddhism in general called much the same thing)

thanks

gassho

richard

sat today

[Chishou]

Mindfulness is part of the Eightfold part, which forms part of the Four Noble Truths. It is just one of the tools we use as part of our practice.

Mindfulness has become a popular term to use with secular meditation, stress reduction etc. In and of itself, mindfulness is useful, but is only 1/8th of a whole. Some say it can only be so beneficial without the other 7/8th.

I hope I have made some sense.

With a bow,
Chishou.
Sat

[Ryumon]

Mindfulness, as it is understood by the general public and the commercial-industrial self-help movements, is a wooly, vague, sort-of faux dharma shibboleth adopted by anyone who wants to peddle a quick fix for life’s ills. As an integral part of the dharma it is essential, but not in the ways that the Buddho-capitalists and proponents of the McDharma present it. It is often seen as a sort of zombified one-pointed attention at whatever you are doing, but that is not a skillful means of living.

Just my two shekels.

Gassho,

Kirk

[Horin]

Hi richard,
to me it sounds like you have with that mindfulnes-ideal some image in your head, some idea you are running behind and cling to it. I think we should drop these ideals, because they are just imaginations how the reality should be. nothing but thoughts..So at least if there is mindfulness, its good and if there is none its ok as well..and if you are aware that you are not mindful, you instantly become aware/mindful.
But thats only my two cents

Gassho,
ben

Stlah

[Ryushi]

Personally, I associate "mindfulness" with secular meditation techniques gaining popularity with the general public. I gather it has more specific meanings (as others have pointed out here) in various Buddhist traditions.

I assume each of our relationships with buddhist terminology connected with our individual entry point to meditation, zen, and/or buddhist concepts generally. My own entry point to zen came through various aspects of the Shunryu Suzuki lineage. I'm fairly narrowly focused on Soto zen, for good or ill, and I haven't found the term used much, though I believe the underlying concepts are very much part of what I've learned.

Gassho.

Sat today.

[MickHeys]

Please look at the definition that Jon Kabat-Zin defines mindfulness with.

Mindfulness is understood by many different people in many different ways. If you look at that definition, it will show that there is little difference between what he is teaching to what is zazen in actual practice. It is just being in the moment and learning to live with what is.

Some people do see mindfulness as a cure, but it only is in as much as it helps people to accept the world around them. In the UK it is a recommended practice for people with recurring depression. A lot of the time people want the world to be different but it's not. It is what it is. Mindfulness is a way for people to learn to accept that if taught correctly.

The main difference as I see it is a bit like seeing a light bulb come on. You flick a switch. It works.

Buddha taught 2500 years ago why. Science can now see an effect, but can't prove the reason so it does what it can prove.

Mindfulness, as one of the other contributors wrote, is but one part of the story. It can have an effect biologically and neurologically, but it won't ever be complete without the rest.

Personally, when I teach mindfulness and then sit, it is the same as zazen but for those who don't want the spiritual or can't accept that, then they need an alternate understanding of the benefits. The science works for some, but it is a bit like saying the back of a stamp is sticky. There is also a front.

Some people are just quite happy the letter gets there without wanting to know how or why.

Just my humble opinion.

[emoji120]

Sattoday

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[Kyotai]

Hi Richard,

If you find being mindful as a practice to be helpful for you along your journey in life. I think you should continue doing so. That is to say, being mindful of each moment that passes and accepting what comes along without judgement or attachment.. Sounds like zen to me.

Gassho, Kyotai
LAH

[Jishin]

Hi Richard,

I think that mindfulness is wonderful.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Doshin]

My introduction to Zen came from a week long retreat with Thich Nhat Hanh. The following year I spent another week with several of his students in the wondrous beauty of the southern Rocky Mountains of the US being serenaded by bugling elk. Mindfulness was a term that permeated through those times. I remember when eating, or walking or visiting with others...if a bell rang we were to pause and be mindful of just that moment. That practice was good, there was a peace and joy that flowed from it. That practice still remains with me. I believe I have observed discussions here about mindfulness so I do not remember it being rebuked but then I was not paying that close of attention. However I just try to sit like we learn here...spaciouness and open if I may.. and let those with greater perspective label what I am doing. Maybe in my practice and a hybrid. I am unable to differentiate. Sometimes I just sit outside and listen to birds, that is mindful to me. Other times I try not to listen but just hear (for me that means stop trying to identify the species singing and just hear the sound). Within the time of my first learning to practice mindfulness several decades ago it has become more commercial (like the Zen life style discussed in another thread) and I am not sure what it means when someone uses that term. Maybe it is the same to them as me. Maybe it is not. What I do believe is that many are better for being mindful even if Zen is a far away path to them. All good.

Gassho
Doshin
St

[Jundo]

Hi Richard,

I think that the wise folks above have raised the many perspectives and concerns about "mindfulness," so I will just add a little and summarize.

First, "mindfulness" can mean many things these days, from some corporate worker just following the breath for a few minutes to merely relax and get back to raising the profit margin for his company, to traditional Theravadan practices of noting the breath and other bodily/mental sensations in order to realize the truth of "dependent origination" and the falsehood of "self" all to attain nirvana and escape the cycle of rebirth! Modern "mindfulness" is typically more like the former, while most people practicing it do not realize that the traditional way was more like the latter.

We also practice "mindfulness" in this Sangha, as in most flavors of Buddhism, if that means being aware of the twists and turns of the "mind theatre," and not being fooled or caught in those tricks. We just do not particularly do so while sitting Zazen. Something I wrote on this before:

Being mindful of 'mindful'

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7910-Being-mindful-of-mindful

I do have concerns that, if one leaves out many of the more powerful and amazing teachings of Buddhism ... ranging from an emphasis on the surrounding ethics and non-violence of the Buddhist Precepts, to such perspectives as "emptiness" and "non^self" and Hua-yan interpenetration ... one is selling a car without the motor.

Finally, when in a Karate Dojo, practice Karate. When on a football field, practice football. It is not that another practice may or may not be good for someone, but that in this Karate Dojo we practice Karate kicks, not field goals. There is a power and wisdom to the radical allowing and goallessness, wholeness and "Just This" of Shikantaza, and here we practice Shikantaza. It is very different from many kinds of meditation where people try to get something (versus getting what can only be gotten when we drop all need to get). Shikantaza is a particular vehicle, what TNH teaches is another vehicle. May they all get us where we need to (non)get.

(Also as has been noted, some of the many "flavors" of mindfulness are actually these days much closer to Shikantaza than traditional mindfulness practices in their emphasis on just sitting and goallessness while breath following, and are not really Vipassana at all. However, I still find the more secular versions really lack much of the power and misunderstand that just sitting without a goal --in not-- radical JUST SITTING! with nothing more in the universe in need of obtaining!)

Anyway, that is why we don't emphasize "mindfulness" here more.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Emmet]

That rather depends upon what you mean as "mindfulness".
I rather like mindfulness practice, in the sense of being mindful of this present moment; "just this, just as it is". Being mindful of my motivations, intentions, and the consequences my actions have upon not only myself, but all others around me, my community, and my world. Being mindful of the Precepts and the Noble Eightfold Path.
I'm rather skeptical of McMindfulness^TM; stripped of the ethical paradigm of Buddhism, secularized, sanitized, pasteurized, processed, commodified, packaged, and lucratively mass-marketed as a panacea to make CEO's more rapacious pillagers, employees more docile serfs, and US Marines more efficient killers.

Sat today.

[Kyonin]

Hi Richard,

Here goes a personal perspective on mindfulness.

We do have the term in our Buddhist books, but Buddhist mindfulness is different than commercial mindfulness.

I think the term was created for people who are scared of the B (for Buddha) word and want all the benefits of the meditation practice but not the philosophy. It is a millions of dollars business where they teach people to be "mindful" of the present moment and breath, but I see this as a potentially dangerous practice.

For instance, some CEOs may take yoga and mindfulness courses to be peaceful and calm to keep exploiting people or nature. Employees take mindfulness courses to be at peace with the fact that they are being exploited and to be more productive without the angst or depression.

My point is that commercial mindfulness products, books and courses, strip meditation out of any ethics or moral ideas and focus on just feeling at peace.

Maybe this is why some Buddhist are against this kind of mindfulness.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

[Meishin]

Hello,

I meet with a group regularly to sit zazen. We have been together for about 1 1/2 years. None of those in the group would have come initially except that it was presented as a group on mindfulness. It has morphed into something much deeper. Sometimes people are not ready to walk straight into what we have come to value.

Gassho
Meishin
Sat Today LAH

[Shoki]

I'm a little wary of the whole trendy, packaged mindfulness thing. I had a boss a few years back who was the most scramble-brained, distracted, attention span of a flea person you could ever meet. He started telling us we all needed to be more mindful. OK. As others stated without the ethics, etc. it sounds a little lightweight. You can buy "zen shampoo" too if somebody tells you .

Gassho
Sat Today LAH
James

[Shinshou]

Hi Richard,

I think that the wise folks above have raised the many perspectives and concerns about "mindfulness," so I will just add a little and summarize.

First, "mindfulness" can mean many things these days, from some corporate worker just following the breath for a few minutes to merely relax and get back to raising the profit margin for his company, to traditional Theravadan practices of noting the breath and other bodily/mental sensations in order to realize the truth of "dependent origination" and the falsehood of "self" all to attain nirvana and escape the cycle of rebirth! Modern "mindfulness" is typically more like the former, while most people practicing it do not realize that the traditional way was more like the latter.

We also practice "mindfulness" in this Sangha, as in most flavors of Buddhism, if that means being aware of the twists and turns of the "mind theatre," and not being fooled or caught in those tricks. We just do not particularly do so while sitting Zazen. Something I wrote on this before:

Being mindful of 'mindful'

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7910-Being-mindful-of-mindful

I do have concerns that, if one leaves out many of the more powerful and amazing teachings of Buddhism ... ranging from an emphasis on the surrounding ethics and non-violence of the Buddhist Precepts, to such perspectives as "emptiness" and "non^self" and Hua-yan interpenetration ... one is selling a car without the motor.

Finally, when in a Karate Dojo, practice Karate. When on a football field, practice football. It is not that another practice may or may not be good for someone, but that in this Karate Dojo we practice Karate kicks, not field goals. There is a power and wisdom to the radical allowing and goallessness, wholeness and "Just This" of Shikantaza, and here we practice Shikantaza. It is very different from many kinds of meditation where people try to get something (versus getting what can only be gotten when we drop all need to get). Shikantaza is a particular vehicle, what TNH teaches is another vehicle. May they all get us where we need to (non)get.

(Also as has been noted, some of the many "flavors" of mindfulness are actually these days much closer to Shikantaza than traditional mindfulness practices in their emphasis on just sitting and goallessness while breath following, and are not really Vipassana at all. However, I still find the more secular versions really lack much of the power and misunderstand that just sitting without a goal --in not-- radical JUST SITTING! with nothing more in the universe in need of obtaining!)

Anyway, that is why we don't emphasize "mindfulness" here more.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Excellently stated. Thank you.

Shinshou (Dan)
Sat Today