To sit through sensations (makyo?) or not?

[Sprice]

I've been sitting shikantaza daily for 30 minutes since February. Off and on for months, when I settle in after a few minutes, I start to feel tingling in my hands, see waves or rings of very faint light, and hear a background hum in my ears. I know these mean nothing and are just physiological phenomena as a result of sitting still and staring at a wall. They don't interfere with me being aware of everything around me in the present and aren't a distraction other than that I think they're not supposed to be there. And I don't think they're a result of trying too hard or getting drowsy (although I do my share of that). I can purposely stop them by focusing on the wall or something, but as soon as I have the intent of opening in awareness or letting go then the sensations come back and will just sit in the background for the entire time. From what I've read on this forum and other zen sources it sounds like makyo and is something to be avoided, but I'm not sure how to do this. Or should I just sit through them and see what comes up?
Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Gassho
Steve

SatToday

[Horin]

hi, sawaki roshi and okumura roshi say that we should sit through all conditions and come back again to sitting if we get lost in them

Gassho,
Ben

Stlah

[Shugen]

hi, sawaki roshi and okumura roshi say that we should sit through all conditions and come back again to sitting if we get lost in them

Gassho,
Ben

Stlah

Yes, sit with it as you can but if it gets worse, perhaps it’s time for a chat with a medical professional.

Just my opinion, I have zero medical training so...

Gassho,

Shugen

Sattoday/LAH


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Mp]

Yes, sit with it as you can but if it gets worse, perhaps it’s time for a chat with a medical professional.

Just my opinion, I have zero medical training so...

Gassho,

Shugen

Sattoday/LAH


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I agree with Shugen here .... Sit with what is, with what arises. But at the same time, don't sit with something that could be damaging to your body.

So when in doubt speak with your doctor first, just to be safe.

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Chishou]

Hello Steve,

As a healthcare professional, it would be negligent of anyone to try and give serious medical advice via a forum.

Please see your primary care/family doctor at a time that suits you, make a diary of your symptoms and the frequency, intensity and anything that brings on or relieves them.

Many bows,
Chishou “Healing hands”,
Sat.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sprice]

Hi everyone and thanks for your responses. I apologize if I caused any alarm with my wording, but thank you for your concern. I believe the types of sensations are more along the lines of sensory deprivation tank type experiences as opposed to something medical. I actually just went through a fairly significant battery of tests so I'm pretty confident that I'm in good health.
Again, thank you for your concern.

Gassho

Steve

SatToday

[Nanrin]

I start to feel tingling in my hands, see waves or rings of very faint light, and hear a background hum in my ears. I know these mean nothing and are just physiological phenomena as a result of sitting still and staring at a wall.

I agree with your analysis. I've had similar things happen myself, such as hashing a humming sound, having patterns dance around in my cousin field, feel energy or warmth moving around in my perception of my boss, etc. Some of it is due to your brain inventing interesting things as it's not getting much sensory stimulation. Some of it is you noticing sessions that your brain usually filters out (you are not consciously aware of a large part of the information flooding the brain) or are normally procesed to remove the static you are now noticing. It's a natural byproduct of meditation.

An aside, similar things can happen if you are getting sleepy or dull too.

They don't interfere with me being aware of everything around me in the present and aren't a distraction other than that I think they're not supposed to be there. And I don't think they're a result of trying too hard or getting drowsy (although I do my share of that). I can purposely stop them by focusing on the wall or something, but as soon as I have the intent of opening in awareness or letting go then the sensations come back and will just sit in the background for the entire time.

They aren't an unwelcome guest. They are natural phenomenon that are arising, nothing to be concerned about. I would treat them like thoughts. Let them come, let them be, let them go, just don't attach to them. Continue to observe your awareness.

From what I've read on this forum and other zen sources it sounds like makyo and is something to be avoided, but I'm not sure how to do this. Or should I just sit through them and see what comes up?


Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Gassho
Steve

SatToday

Don't get caught up in thinking they are a good byproduct of meditation and a sign of progress. Don't get caught up thinking they are a bad sign and a hindrance that must be eliminated or avoided. They are just phenomenon passing through.

Hope this is helpful.

Gassho,

Maitri

SatToday, going to go sit again

[Jishin]

To sit through sensations (makyo?) or not?

Hello Steve,

As a healthcare professional, it would be negligent of anyone to try and give serious medical advice via a forum.

Please see your primary care/family doctor at a time that suits you, make a diary of your symptoms and the frequency, intensity and anything that brings on or relieves them.

Many bows,
Chishou “Healing hands”,
Sat.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Are you being negligent by giving serious medical advice via a forum recommending people to see their their primary care/family doctor at a time that suits them, make a diary of their symptoms and the frequency, intensity and anything that brings on or relieves them.?

Why not go to the ER first? Maybe is a stroke. Maybe a heart attack and lack of perfusion is causing the symptoms. Maybe a psychiatric disorder or complex migraine. Maybe a tumor. Hard to triage someone from a distance which is what you did. I think it works best by simply saying ask your doctor and stop.

[emoji3]

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

I agree with all advise to see your physician and get checked. It could not hurt.

I usually post the following on Makyo when the topic comes up ...

==========

THE SHORT VERSION

Ah, the mind playing tricks! I recently had the wavy carpet effect (described below) sitting in a hotel room with a bad carpet ...

All manner of sensory "tricks" can occur during Zazen. Sensory deprivation, and really paying attention to objects of sight that we usually do not pay attention to (the patterns on the carpet, for example) can have such an effect. These things usually are connected to the mechanics of the visual sense, and often beyond our control. It is just an optical illusion.

Seeing patterns on the carpet or wall you are looking at, and floor undulation, is kind of like this effect produced by a bad carpet:

http://www.moillusions.com/2007/11/wavy-floor-optical-illusion.html

Another common effect is to see "spots in the eyes". Most are there all along (floating impurities, early cataracts and such of the eyeball itself), but we just do not notice them until we sit still. Many are just the "cones and rods" of the eye that were there all along. The cones and rods of color, for example, are always present in our eyes, but we do not give them notice so often in day to day life. In Zazen, what is always there just stands out sometimes, and the brain plays some tricks by seeing "connect the dot" patterns.

The eyes contain cones and rods for color that we usually do not notice (but, if you look at any object closely, you will see little dots of color, much like the picture tube of a color tv):

http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/retina.html

The sensory deprivation effect at staring at the white surface just brings the little dots to our attention, and they play pattern tricks in the brain.

Like a new pair of glasses, the brain will adjust and soon not notice the dots as much. Maybe we are subconsciously looking for the patterns, and thus noticing the patterns. If we just forget about them, they usually go away.

The brain tends to try to recognize objects in formless patterns such as we see the "man in the moon" or bunny rabbits in clouds or Jesus on a piece of toast. There is even a scientific name for it: Pareidolia

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22686500

However, visual hallucinations are common in Zazen. Not a worry, nor of any particular importance other than as an amusement, possibly with a small lesson about how we create the world through the senses. What you are seeing is a fine lesson on how the mind can create a sense of reality. Learn that lesson, and return to just sitting. (My suggestion to a person seeing patterns on a carpet was to change the place where sitting to some wall or floor with less pattern suggestion, more monotone and a different color.

My tinnitus becomes very pronounced during the quiet of sitting. As well, a little "carpal tunnel" I have in the hands, and my old football injury in the knees, becomes noticeable when I stop moving and just sit in open awareness.

If you would like to read a much longer post on "Makyo" illusions during Zazen, as well as psychological experiences, I will paste it below.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

PS - And, yes, if any idea that it might be a symptom of a more serious health issue, see your physician.

[Jundo]

THE LONG VERSION:

I have had many similar experiences scattered over the years, my body feeling very large or spaceless, a sense of floating. Once, a tiny Buddha popped out of the wall and we had a little conversation. In the Zen world, it is typical not to pay any special attention to such times.

In Zen Practice, we have to be careful of certain games the mind will play during Zazen once in awhile ... including unusual visual and auditory sensations, brief periods of paranoia or panic, memories arising from deep down in our subconscious. Once, during a Sesshin, I became irate inside because I felt the monk at Sojiji sitting next to me was "encroaching on my space". I once had a little Buddha pop out of the wall and chat with me for several minutes (I pinched myself ... he stayed!), and felt like I was floating in the air. It is common during Sesshin, because of the strains involved, the "sensory deprivation", to experience such things as emotional swings, hearing becoming so sharp you can be disturbed by an ant walking across the room, strange bodily sensations such as feelings of floating or being giant sized, and paranoia.

Do not drive them away or forcefully push them out ... neither grab them, cling to them or stir them up. If finding oneself doing any of that, simply open the hand of thought and let them go.

If it happens once in awhile, it is not a particular concern ... just an interesting moment. If it happens very often, we may need to see what you are doing or what is going on that may be causing such experiences.

-------------------------------

All manner of sensory "tricks" can occur during Zazen. Some are quite interesting, as seems this one. We may note them, but do not particlarly encourage them in our little corner of Buddhist meditation. ...

In Zen Practice, we have to be careful of certain games the mind will play during Zazen once in awhile ... including unusual visual and auditory sensations, brief periods of paranoia or panic, memories arising from deep down in our subconscious. We are not used to the stillness and quiet of Zazen, and it lets certain memories, emotions, fears and like psychological states rise to the surface ... or allows some things (spots in our eyes that are always there even though not usually noticed, background sounds) to be noticed that are usually blocked out by all the noise and busyness in our heads, senses and around us.

If it is just once in awhile ... and if you are aware of this, and it was not too overwhelming ... then I do not think it cause for worry. If it becomes too overwhelming, break off that sitting and take a little time off until you cool down. If it becomes a regular event, or too profound, that may be a sign of something else that needs to be approached. But, once in awhile ... I would not be concerned.

We tend to call such things "Makyo", defined as follows (by Daido Loori Roshi). He speaks of hallucinatory like experiences ...

In Zen, hallucinations are called makyo. It is not unusual for practitioners sitting in meditation for long periods of time to experience makyo. Some people feel like they are levitating, others see visions of the Buddha bathed in light, some hear sounds or voices. This in itself is not a problem. The problem arises when we confuse these experiences with enlightenment. When students come to me in dokusan to give me elaborate description of their makyo, a common response from me could be something like, “Oh, don’t worry about it—it will go away. Maybe you’re not sitting straight.” In other words, don’t attach to it. But if a dream is real, why isn’t makyo real? Are dreams, makyo, enlightenment and delusion the same, or are they different?

We learn from all these experience ... we learn how the mind is like a theatre, and creates our experience of the life-world.

I also posted this once ...

Sensory deprivation, and really paying attention to objects of sight that we usually do not pay attention to (the patterns on the carpet, for example) can have such an effect. These things usually are connected to the mechanics of the visual sense, and often beyond our control. It is just an optical illusion.

A dry as toast, but good book on the topic is Dr. Austin's Zen and the Brain ... he has a discussion of all manner of hallucinations here (from about page 373).

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=5&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.com%2Fbooks%3Fid%3D8ywrjDa0vZ8C%26dq%3Dzen%2Band%2Bthe%2Bbrain%26printsec%3Dfrontcover%26source%3Dbn%26hl%3Den%26ei%3DvAK1SfK1MZiy6wPt34S6BQ%26sa%3DX%26oi%3Dbook_result%26resnum%3D5%26ct%3Dresult&ei=vAK1SfK1MZiy6wPt34S6BQ&usg=AFQjCNEkHKnyAAZJFZ60JYBO-txzdjUW2Q&sig2=gpC5vxamEJTUDyJTKBdEnA

More here ...

Hallucinations and Illusions

Kornfield (1979, 1983) noted that there was a strong correlation between student reports of higher levels of concentration during insight meditation, when the mind was focused and steady, and reports of altered states and perceptions. He reported that unusual experiences, such as visual or auditory aberrations and hallucinations, and unusual somatic experiences, are the norm among practiced meditation students. Walsh (1978) reported that he experienced hypnagogic hallucinations, and Goleman (1978-79) reported visionary experiences during deep meditation. Shimano and Douglas (1975) reported hallucinations similar to toxic delirium during zazen.

... Earlier, Deikman (1966a) reported that during meditation on a blue vase, his subjects' perception of color became more intense or luminous, and that for some of them the vase changed shape, appeared to dissolve, or lost its boundaries. Maupin (1965) reported that meditators sometimes experience "hallucinoid feelings, muscle tension, sexual excitement, and intense sadness."

The contemplative literature contains numerous descriptions of the perceptual distortion produced by meditation. It is called makyo in Zen Buddhist sources, and is characterized in some schools as "going to the movies," a sign of spiritual intensity but a phenomenon that is regarded to be distinctly inferior to the clear insight of settled practice. In some Hindu schools it is regarded as a product of the sukshma sharira, or "experience body," in its unstable state, and in that respect is seen to be another form of maya, which is the illusory nature of the world as apprehended by ordinary consciousness.

In a similar manner, St. John of the Cross described the false enchantments that may lure the aspirant in prayer, warning that "devils may come in the guise of angels." [51] In his allegory of the spiritual journey, The Pilgrim's Progress, John Bunyan described Christian's losing his way by following a man who says he is going to the Celestial City but instead leads him into a net. In all the great contemplative manuals, one is taught that detachment, equanimity, and discrimination are required for spiritual balance once the mind has been opened and made more flexible by prayer and meditation. Illusions and hallucinations, whether they are troubling or beatific, are distractions—or signposts at best—on the way to enlightenment or union with God.

http://noetic.org/meditation-bibliography/bibliography-info/

Move along folks ... nothing to look at here! :-)

Actually, it is all a fine lesson in how the body-mind-self-world are all interconnected.

What we are seeing or experiencing is a fine lesson on how the mind can create a sense of reality. Learn that lesson, and return to just sitting.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Kyoshin]

The tingling in the hands could be a product of body alignment, where something is tight or out of place which causes the nerves in your neck to get squeezed when you sit. Generally not dangerous, just annoying. You might check with a chiropractor, physical therapist, or even a good yoga teacher, somebody well trained in posture and body alignment. People came to me at my clinic describing very similar issues all the time, and the vast majority found relief with some pretty minor adjustments to the way they were sitting, or a good stretching routine or something like that.
But of course as a health care professional I will add the standard cover-my-butt clause: check with your doctor. [emoji16]

Gassho,
Nick
Satlah

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[Kotei]

Hi Sprice,

I am experiencing similar phenomena from time to time, Nick's posting would've helped me :-).
Neck tension, that leads to headache and other pain, is a regular visitor outside sitting.
When I am sitting with too much tension in the neck / head area, or not naturally stretching the head up and tucking the chin a little in (stretching the neck with that), this happens.
There is a trap in this, too... When I am trying too much to correct, it's getting worse.
The key for me is somehow "allowing" the body to take its natural position and not forcing it.

But that's of course just me...

Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.

[Jishin]

To sit through sensations (makyo?) or not?

IMG_0021.JPGIMG_0022.JPGIMG_0023.JPG

[emoji3]

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Kyonin]

Hi Steve,

When we sit motionless and aware that we are just sitting, we tend to feel our bodies in a way that we don't usually do because we are distracted with everyday life. When we sit zazen we feel hot hands or face, maybe a little funny thing on the legs, sometimes the hum in our ears…

So as long as you are not in pain and you think you need a doctor to check you up, I think it's pretty normal.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Sprice]

Thanks to everyone for the information and advice. I really appreciate it. It's an impressive community.

Gassho
Steve

Sattoday